Devall2000
First Post
If skills and feats were taken out of D&D, what would have to be done to balance it?
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What would have to be done to 3.5 D&D if you removed skills and feats?
- Thread starter Devall2000
- Start date
JRRNeiklot
First Post
You'd have to rework the fighter and rogue classes. Otherwise, pretty much nothing.
w_earle_wheeler
First Post
Castles & Crusades is a 3.5ish fantasy game without skills or feats (though skill options were added in a later supplement).
Basically, all "skill" checks are based off of ability scores (if it's a "prime" score for your character the check is easier), class capability (a fighter has a higher target number to hide than a rogue) and level.
As for feats, instead each character class as a set of abilities they all get, and that's it.
Also, in a way, a version of 3.5 without skills and feats could be like an earlier edition of D&D except with a "higher is better" design for AC, fewer saving through catagories, and a BAB instead of THACO or a chart.
Basically, all "skill" checks are based off of ability scores (if it's a "prime" score for your character the check is easier), class capability (a fighter has a higher target number to hide than a rogue) and level.
As for feats, instead each character class as a set of abilities they all get, and that's it.
Also, in a way, a version of 3.5 without skills and feats could be like an earlier edition of D&D except with a "higher is better" design for AC, fewer saving through catagories, and a BAB instead of THACO or a chart.
silver_wizard
First Post
I guess you'd have to convert some of the feats into class abilities. As for skills, I really don't know... If that's what you want to do, why don't you play an appropriately tweaked vesrion of AD&D (e.g. 2nd edition with some concepts of 3E that you particularly like integrated into it)?
Obergnom
First Post
hmm,
First of all, forget about Chalenge Ratings, those wont work anymore... give those classes that get bonus feats a set progression of feats as new class abilities. (Example: Fighter - Level 1: Weapon Focus, Level 2 - 2nd Weapon Focus, Level 4 Weapon Spec, Level 6 - 2nd Weapon Spec, Level 8 Improved Crit, Level 10 Greater Weapon Focus...)
You do want to have some task resolution system. If you go down a Ability Check for every action route, give those classes with more than 2 Skills per level one ability for every skill point above 2 they may add their level to, when using it.
Example: Ranger - 4 Abilities: Rangers may add their Class Level to all Checks made to Hide, Move Silently, Track (Survival) and Notice Checks (Listen and Spot, a bit generous, but fitting)
Barbarian - 2 Abilities: Barbarians may add their class level to all Checks made to Climb and Jump.
etc.
I once thought about that... but I decided to use C&C instead.
First of all, forget about Chalenge Ratings, those wont work anymore... give those classes that get bonus feats a set progression of feats as new class abilities. (Example: Fighter - Level 1: Weapon Focus, Level 2 - 2nd Weapon Focus, Level 4 Weapon Spec, Level 6 - 2nd Weapon Spec, Level 8 Improved Crit, Level 10 Greater Weapon Focus...)
You do want to have some task resolution system. If you go down a Ability Check for every action route, give those classes with more than 2 Skills per level one ability for every skill point above 2 they may add their level to, when using it.
Example: Ranger - 4 Abilities: Rangers may add their Class Level to all Checks made to Hide, Move Silently, Track (Survival) and Notice Checks (Listen and Spot, a bit generous, but fitting)
Barbarian - 2 Abilities: Barbarians may add their class level to all Checks made to Climb and Jump.
etc.
I once thought about that... but I decided to use C&C instead.
Wik
First Post
Take a look at the d20 Mini-game, Omega World (I think it's dungeon #92 or something). When it designed it's NPCs, it "Streamlined" feats into their creation, so that it would say something like "1 in 4 NPCs at this point would have improved initiative, so all NPCs at this level would get a +1 to initiative").
Taking this a bit further, you create "feat paths" for various character types - the power attacker, the weapon specialist, the archer, the dodger, the skilled character, and so forth. You create what feats a character in that group would take (power attacker would take cleave, power attack, great cleave, maybe improved bull rush, etc...), and then you present them as a list of class abilities. Or, you could factor these feats into the character itself. Power attack wouldn't be a combat option, but would be "-1 to attack, +1 (or +2 with a two-handed weapon) to damage on melee attacks" every few levels or so. If you decide to do this, you need to let fighters choose at least two feat paths, while other classes get to choose one. Since I assume you want to limit the complexity that feats bring to the game, I'd suggest when developing feat paths that you stick to "invisible feats", or those that add a bonus to your character and can then be promptly forgotten (Iron will, weapon focus, weapon finesse, etc...). And don't be afraid to create abilities that could replace a feat choice that might seem a bit more powerful (+1 AC, for example, is better than dodge) - while they ARE more powerful, the fact that PCs cannot select custom-tailored feats to suit a power build more than makes up for it.
***
As for skills, why not just have each player say where their character hails from, and how they grew up? That will give you an idea of what skills that character knows, and you can play skill checks as a simple level check (1d20+character's level+relevant ability?) or something to see if they are successful. and do something to get replace the rogue....
Realize that if you get rid of skills, you're boosting the fighter and other low-skill classes, and severely damaging rogues, bards, rangers, and the like. You need to find some way to compensae for that loss.
Taking this a bit further, you create "feat paths" for various character types - the power attacker, the weapon specialist, the archer, the dodger, the skilled character, and so forth. You create what feats a character in that group would take (power attacker would take cleave, power attack, great cleave, maybe improved bull rush, etc...), and then you present them as a list of class abilities. Or, you could factor these feats into the character itself. Power attack wouldn't be a combat option, but would be "-1 to attack, +1 (or +2 with a two-handed weapon) to damage on melee attacks" every few levels or so. If you decide to do this, you need to let fighters choose at least two feat paths, while other classes get to choose one. Since I assume you want to limit the complexity that feats bring to the game, I'd suggest when developing feat paths that you stick to "invisible feats", or those that add a bonus to your character and can then be promptly forgotten (Iron will, weapon focus, weapon finesse, etc...). And don't be afraid to create abilities that could replace a feat choice that might seem a bit more powerful (+1 AC, for example, is better than dodge) - while they ARE more powerful, the fact that PCs cannot select custom-tailored feats to suit a power build more than makes up for it.
***
As for skills, why not just have each player say where their character hails from, and how they grew up? That will give you an idea of what skills that character knows, and you can play skill checks as a simple level check (1d20+character's level+relevant ability?) or something to see if they are successful. and do something to get replace the rogue....
Realize that if you get rid of skills, you're boosting the fighter and other low-skill classes, and severely damaging rogues, bards, rangers, and the like. You need to find some way to compensae for that loss.
Warbringer
Explorer
I'd have come up with some form of proficiencies that were not tied to weapons. then I may have had some of them not require skill checks, but be on all the time, sort of thing 
TomWhitbrook
First Post
Before removing feats and skills, you should ask yourself what you're trying to achieve by removing them. If you aren't going to replace them, then you also remove the option of playing skill and feat based classes, such as bards, rogues, fighters, rangers, and so on. If you are replacing them with some alternative, is it worth going to the effort of doing so? Maybe, if you dislike skills and feats, then looking for a different system that doesn't have them to begin with is an easier option for you.
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