What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

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Well, I'm agreeing with Hobo.

The only people that say Wizards has bad customer service or public relations are people who aren't customers in the first place. They have incredible public relations. They have amazing customer service. They literally have a help desk phone number if you have a rules question. You sign up for Organized Play and they'll send you free adventures and stuff. You think you get that kind of service anywhere else? Anywhere?

"Ditch 4E entirely" is even less likely. I also don't think selling the old stuff OR the PDFs will help in any way, either. The market for old stuff exists and it's called Ebay. And I know that some people will have a problem hearing that there's a ton of people that absolutely love 4e (and I'm one of them). I think 4E is easily the best version of the game that has ever been published. Opinions are like that though. I realize that mine isn't universal.

Now these almost seem like cruel and hurtful things to say, but they really aren't. They aren't personal or hurtful, they're simply facts. (or in my case, opinions. That 4e is awesome, I mean. Which it totally is.)
 

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Doug McCrae

Legend
The concept of having a personal relationship with a company, of being owed an apology is one that is alien to me. Maybe I'm too much of a sociopath, I dunno.

I've bought tons of crap from TSR and WotC over the years but I never felt they owed me anything other than the product. They get the money, I get the game or book or boxed set. We are even now, that's how it works.

The only way I could understand is if you were buying products you didn't really like just to support the company. You felt the product wasn't actually worth the money but by being a customer you were somehow paying for a say in how the company was run. Thing is, I don't think that's how TSR or WotC ever saw it. You never got a vote.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
I wasn't going to comment on the OP, as this thread has been done so many times (some of them by me:blush:), but I could only resist for a day (I'm so weak:eek:)...

My answers would be the same as they've been since April 8, 2009:

I don't play 4E. I don't hate it, or think it's a bad system, but it just isn't my preference. However, I did buy the 4E Core Set (Box) when 4E first released. I also purchased a DDI account. However, I cancelled it after the events of 8 April.

It's not effective to target me as a purchaser of their print products. I may pick up the occasional book, in order to plunder something from it for my houserules/campaign, but not enough for it to be worthwhile to court me. But here's the kicker, I'd only buy the occasional book if exposed to them (which I no longer am because of cancelling my DDI account).

The most lucrative product WotC has (as far as D&D) is DDI. It's consistent, self-renewing revenue (as opposed to the one time purchase of a book). How could WotC get me back (as a DDI customer)? By doing the following (in order of importance):
  • Resume sales of older edition materials in some electronic format...whether .pdf or other, doesn't really matter to me, but do it NOW!
  • Include some occasional older edition material in Dragon and Dungeon. Maybe one article and one adventure a month in a rotating format (from OD&D through 3E).
  • Include Character Builders, Encounter Builders, and Compendiums for the previous editions of D&D.
  • Include the promised Character Visualizer and Virtual Table Top so I can finally use DDI for what I originally got an account for.
Without the above, I have no reason as a customer to patron WotC. They just don't currently have anything I need or want.B-)
 



Remathilis

Legend
...I'm not sure.

Seeing as I don't have much inkling to play the current D&D offered (while Essentials is tempting, I fear the changes won't be radical enough to correct all my misgivings about the system) and these days other companies offer me a decent alternative to Dungeon Tiles and DDM (for what little I still need of the latter) that WotC has become largely irrelevant to my gaming these days. Heck, I wouldn't even need older-edition PDFs since I own on PDF almost every book I'd ever need!

That said, I do miss the idea of playing "D&D", just for the sake of brand loyalty. I call my Pathfinder game "D&D" informally, but something just ain't the same.

Perhaps if Essentials does enough changes under the hood, I'd look at 4e again. Beyond that, I fear WotC probably won't get my money until 5e comes out (if even).
 

TheYeti1775

Adventurer
Put me in the "I hope they don't do anything to bring back the disenchanted" camp.

The simple fact is, you're going to lose some people every time you switch editions.

And you're going to gain some people.

I'm very worried the Essentials line is going to try too hard to bring back the lapsed DnDers and end up changing the game in ways I myself no longer want to support.
Why wouldn't you want more customers for WotC? Honestly that doesn't make any kind of sense at all to me.
I agree with you that you will lose people/gain people with every new edition, but if a company can minimize it's customer base lose during that switch why wouldn't that?

If WotC spent any manpower/money on releasing new material for older editions that would be splitting the market . . . and it would be a bad business decision. ...snip...
The only split in that would be on the R&D side of the house. Those who refuse to go to 4E, aren't part of the current customer base now. Catering to their whims even at say one module a year (1 per year for each prior edition released quarterly), could actually be the small token of goodwill that pushes them to try other WotC products that are offered just on an impulse buy.

Licensing is a possibility, but WotC has already made the decision that licensing aspects of D&D to other companies is not a direction they want to go anymore (Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Kalamar, Hackmaster, Oriental Adventures). I wouldn't mind if WotC did produce material for older editions either themselves or through a license, but I don't begrudge them for choosing not to do so (not that you are, I'm just saying).
The question though is, are there any companies willing to subject themselves to WotC's licensing departments after the fiascos of the past? And outside of two or three companies, who has the money, the interest, and the skills needed for it.

One thing I'd love to see that I think would work would be for WotC to have a unique license with Paizo for Pathfinder to use any official D&D 3e material and have some sort of low-key "Official Classic D&D" logo or phrase or something like that. I'm not sure if Paizo would want to do that, and I doubt that WotC would, but I think it would work out well for WotC, Paizo, and the consumers. And I dig it.
To me that would be the spliting of the market, as Paizo is an outside company with it's own version of the game. You want those Paizo customers to be WotC customers, not give more ammo to Paizo in which WotC customers become Paizo customers instead.

But, I play 4e, so WotC doesn't have to win me back!
Then really the thread isn't for you. ;)


I think that the call for older material in electronic form works on 2 levels:

  1. It satisfies the drive for ease of storage & use as more players become increasingly technophillic
  2. The rebuilding of corporate goodwill that was lost in the waning months of 3.5 and the early months of the 4Ed rollout. Many people didn't like the way WotC handled the expiration of licenses with other companies, the way 4Ed was marketed, and clearly, the removal of downloadable legal PDFs.

The second point is important. The mere fact of the PDFs returning to the market may soothe enough people that they continue to patronize WotC's site- the reason for their "boycott" would be over.

Plus, as noted before, it lets them continue to profit from extant material.
PDF's are the cheapest and quickiest way for WotC to garner 'boycotting' customers back.
Think about it, they already have the PDF's. They already still have the saved web pages that contained them for sale. There only additional cost is turning it back on and maintaining the e-commerce site for them.

To come back into the fold, I'd need WotC to:
1] Re-release pdfs, particularly of older edition materials.
2] Ditch 4th edition and go back to D&D's roots to create a game that strongly resembles the D&D that I've played for the past 30 years. There is room for innovation and streamlining (I'm thinking of d20/OGL games like Star Wars: Saga Edition and Castles & Crusades) while still keeping the classic D&D tropes.

The following would sweeten the pot, but aren't requirements:
3] Make the DDI a repository of all D&D goodness, including the Dragon Archives, the AD&D 2nd edition Core Rules, all D&D pdfs, and so on.
4] Make the pdfs and both Dragon and Dungeons magazines available in print through a print-on-demand partnership with Lulu or a similar outfit.
As I said number one has the easiest ROI (Return of Investment) for WotC.
Number 2, though is just unrealistic at this point. You would sooner see a 5E come out than a return to 1E days.

Number 3, your right, it would sweeten the pot so much it would get tooth rot.
Even if they went the PCGen method and just created the shell with the directions in how to create your own datasets, the goodwill and ROI of this could be much greater than expected. Add a release method of one book per month to be added to it, you will have continous customers for it.
Start with the 3.0E/3.5E books first. Like I said earlier this is your more likely greatest return area.

I'm hardly a staunch Wizards defender and I disagree. I don't even play 4e. I've never even read 4e, or played a single trial game of it, or anything.

That said, I think most of the complaints about Wizards' PR job come from spoiled, entitled fanboys with wildly unreasonable expectations. The interenet is one of those funny things where a handful of people willing to make a lot of "noise" can give the false impression that there's some huge blunder happening, when in reality most people are either indifferent, or even happy with the state of affairs.

I happen to be one of the indifferent ones. But most gamers I talk to are the happy ones.

The PR blunders to me are pretty straight forward ones. Many of them smelled of rank amateurness. D&D is one of those hobbies where there is an abnormal amount of 'nerdrage'. Add in the fact many of us are technoweanies, you will get the 'large outcry'.
Examples:
PDF's - Pirates have existed always. When WotC said they were stopping PDF's because of Pirates it was laughed at by them. What the first book that came out, was found in whole bad scans by day 3 and by day 7 there were high quality OCR'd/bookmarked PDF's available. WotC in the meantime loses all the possible legal customers they had for said PDF.
Gleemax - we all loved Gleemax didn't we. Heck even their new forum format there is something I don't like. I think I might log on over there once every few months and leave rather quickly.
4E Release - Really the only thing wrong here is with the DDI release not living up to its hype. Many had been burnt on Vaporware before (looking at you Code Monkeys) and were quite cynical. Even now there are things that were promised that haven't appeared yet.

Far as a WotC presence wanted here, yeah that would be great. But really does that suit their interests of bringing us all into there world (forums). Technically we (EnWorld) is a competior for them (EnWorld Publishing/Forums).
That and as I said before, we have raked WotC employees over the coals around here. I'm guilty just as well of it. So any WotC official presence here would have to go through a legal mother may I before it is ever posted anymore.

Now someone mentioned how much of a customer would you be for just the PDF's.
My answer, unknown really. I might buy 2, I might buy 50. I don't have a lot of holes left that I know of, luckily.
 

hutchback

Explorer
That said, I do miss the idea of playing "D&D", just for the sake of brand loyalty. I call my Pathfinder game "D&D" informally, but something just ain't the same.

Honestly I think this is the heart of the issue. The brand that is D&D long ago transcended the companies that publish its material and became the identity of a sub-culture. I believe this where the sense of self-entitlement comes from. People who play D&D feel as responsible for the brand as any other entity. And in a lot of ways they are right.

But, I am puzzled by gamers making demands of WotC when other companies have already heard their pleas and are delivering solutions. Is the brand that important? Do you feel ripped off because its D&D you want to play, because well its D&D.

I used to drive nothing but Hondas. I loved them. They were everything I wanted in a car. Small, reliable, peppy and stylish. Recently Honda has made some turns that I don't agree with (primarily in the category of style). I don't hang out at the dealership lamenting about how things used to be or how hard it is to find parts to my old civic. I haven't written any letters to Honda, demanding they manufacture the older cars I love. I bought a Subaru and I really like it.

Think about what you are asking of WotC... to provide all things to all people. I cannot think of a single company in any industry that operates on this kind of model. The few that even come close (Comcast, Verizon, Walmart, Best Buy) do such an awful job of it and are generally reviled by the public they serve.

But rather than lapse further into a rant, I have a question. What is it about PDFs that make them so desirable?
 

Ulrick

First Post
In my case, I'm not sure if there is much to "win" back in their eyes.

WotC is targeting younger gamers. Simply put. After 4e coming out I realized I was no longer the "target market" demographic. I'm not sure how successful 4e has been in drawing in newer, younger, players. I can only observed what it happening in my local area and comments online. From what I'm seeing is 3.5e and Pathfinder being played. 4e seems to not be as popular.

Even if sales are down, I doubt WotC would re-release stuff from older editions on PDF or whatever format. Older editions are competition for the newer edition. I'd like to see PDFs of older stuff, but I doubt its going to happen--after all, requests like that seem to come from the older demographic in WotC's eyes.

WotC already got my money. I purchased the first three core books, DDI, Adventurers Vault, and Open Grave. I played the game, liked it at first. But then I wasted about three months running a campaign with it. 4e goes against my gaming philosophy of being creative, giving players many options both for character building and ingame, and the threat that your character could die. But then again, WotC is targeting people who don't have time to be creative, who want limited options to get on playing in one hour encounter blocks, and who expect their characters to not die. No. I am not part of that demographic at all.

My only regret with 4e is buying all those books and wasting three months running a 4e campaign before realizing that 4e is just not for me.
 

scruffygrognard

Adventurer
As I said number one has the easiest ROI (Return of Investment) for WotC.
Number 2, though is just unrealistic at this point. You would sooner see a 5E come out than a return to 1E days.

I should have stated that a bit more clearly.
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2] WotC should ditch 4th edition and its design goals to create a 5th edition that strongly resembles the D&D that I've played for the past 30 years. There is room for innovation and streamlining (I'm thinking of d20/OGL games like Star Wars: Saga Edition and Castles & Crusades) while still keeping the classic D&D tropes.
--------------------------------------

I don't want to go back to AD&D at all. I'd like to see 5th edition D&D use the best bits from AD&D, 3.X and 4th edition, plus some new innovation to fill in the cracks.
 

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