What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[Jack99]

Holdup....Whoa. Looking at that catalog, there's a couple items in there that, as a current non-4E player, actually had me interested - and surprised.

They're doing a gazetteer on 4E Nentir Vale? I thought I had read back at the start of 4E they were trying to avoid something like that to keep it from becoming too "canonized", but I am somewhat happy they are finally going to do a write-up of a 4E "campaign world".

It does seem WotC has been shifting gears (ever so slowly), and the train is slowly moving back in a direction that might pick me back up. If so, that makes me happy. I've been wanting my gaming wants to converge with what they're producing for some time now. I want to buy D&D stuff, they just haven't been making stuff that interests me for some time (beyond dungeon tiles).

The PoL setting is very popular amongst 4e fans, and thus WotC are just making what a lot of us have been asking for since late 2008.

 

[MerricB]

And doesn't DDI present some of the same issues as PDFs would?

Indeed they do... and note how Wizards are now producing books which have a lot of material that isn't in the Compendium. Yes, the mechanics are - but the additional "fluff" isn't, and that's a significant part of their recent releases.

Cheers!

 

[El Mahdi]

Apologies for getting behind on this thread. It's moving faster than I've had time to read it, so I'm skimming and catching up. So...

...The older folks are only spending more after years of already being gamers - if you don't already have them, they are a poor choice to target them for sales. If you want to grow your long-term player pool, you need to get them while they are teens. Failing to target teens is a good way to doom your long-term business.

I agree with (almost) all of this. The problem is that when you extend this reasoning, WotC's actions seem illogical.


Basically: What's the point of targeting teens with the goal of growing a long-term customer* pool, if you treat your long term customers in a manner which says: "only the new customers matter"?

It seems to me that working at keeping customers is just as important...



*changed from the quote as what we're really talking about isn't a player pool, but a customer pool...players don't necessarily make you money, customers do...

 

[El Mahdi]

The PoL setting is very popular amongst 4e fans, and thus WotC are just making what a lot of us have been asking for since late 2008.

I'm not a 4E fan, and it even looks interesting to me. I even want to buy a copy myself...that is, if WotC starts selling pdf's* again.

Now, how about the rest of the stuff a lot of us have been asking for since late 2008?

 

[I'm A Banana]

That is very easy to say, but you have to remember something - traditionally, the only money these folks get is from distributing copyrighted content.

Well, the vast bulk of D&D has never really been copyrighted content. Rules and Generic Fantasy Archetypes that had long ago entered public domain. There's been bits here and there (weird monsters, things with the serial numbers filed off, specific worlds and characters from the novel lines), but the game of D&D has long frolicked in the public pool.

Thus, protecting distribution of that content is paramount to them. It is so important to them that they can be less-than-rational at times. Forgive them - it is a new era, and they're only human. They take time to adjust and find new ways to work - the DDI, for example. They'll find other hooks, given time, and maybe then they'll get less paranoid.

My mom used to tell me, "If you want someone to forgive you, you have to show them you've changed, first."

Personally, I'll go that route.

I do believe WotC is lead by pretty clever folks, and that they certainly can change. Until they do, though, I need to keep harping on it, lest they (or others observing the convo) forget that it is actually a problem.

 

[Umbran]

Well, the vast bulk of D&D has never really been copyrighted content. Rules and Generic Fantasy Archetypes that had long ago entered public domain. There's been bits here and there (weird monsters, things with the serial numbers filed off, specific worlds and characters from the novel lines), but the game of D&D has long frolicked in the public pool.

If that's so strong a statement, why should we expect them to publish pdfs of that minimal amount of content? If it isn't under copyright, nothing's stopping others from publishing it...

And lookee here: OSRIC. I guess you're right! So, again, why should they be selling us their pdfs?

 

[Kobold Boots]

Well, there was a time when you simply rolled ability scores. Sometimes CHA ended up being high and you got to enjoy the benefits of loyal henchmen and followers.

In 4E your class determines your dump stat because the stats don't have much defined intrinsic value. Attack with CHA, use CON to modify AC. The stats themselves no longer have a meaning. The class will make sure that you only need a couple of them and make sure that whatever they are will cover most of your needs. Not very strong? Play something that modifies physical attacks with WIS or CON.

Now that every stat can be an important combat stat, dump statting has become more equal opportunity.

No more pickin on CHA, you hear?

The funny thing about CHA being a dump stat is..

That you can tell who your globally thinking GMs are just by hearing that said at the table. Charisma isn't a dump stat if the GM is actively using all available encounter options and remembering to keep charisma in mind when describing NPC warmth and willingness to interact.

Same with any other stat, but now that it's combat capable the game is at least trending towards balance within a specific silo.

 

[Umbran]

Basically: What's the point of targeting teens with the goal of growing a long-term customer* pool, if you treat your long term customers in a manner which says: "only the new customers matter"?

Well, first off, "new" is a relative term. If you're new compared to folks who have been your customers for a decade, you can still expect several years of good service, which is probably enough for now.

The new folks are more used to the CCGs and videogame models, where games change pretty constantly. They may not be expecting the decade or more of support that some of the older players do.

And, to be cynical, the new players don't know much about how players of older editions feel they were treated, and they probably don't much care, either. For one thing, not every customer of old feels put upon (I don't, for example). The ones who do feel put upon, I fear, paint themselves in such a poor light as to make the newer players... glad that they aren't around.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If that's so strong a statement, why should we expect them to publish pdfs of that minimal amount of content? If it isn't under copyright, nothing's stopping others from publishing it...

And lookee here: OSRIC. I guess you're right! So, again, why should they be selling us their pdfs?

...Why do we want to buy DVD's of Disney's Snow White instead of making our own?

Besides, there's a lot of brand loyalty, and that trademark (and that cultural momentum) isn't so easily copied.

OSRIC is golden, but I bet a lot of OSRIC players would still pay WotC $5 for a PDF of the original 1e Monster Manual.

Hell, I would, and I don't play any retroclones.

 

[Squizzle]

Well, first off, "new" is a relative term. If you're new compared to folks who have been your customers for a decade, you can still expect several years of good service, which is probably enough for now.

The new folks are more used to the CCGs and videogame models, where games change pretty constantly. They may not be expecting the decade or more of support that some of the older players do.

And, to be cynical, the new players don't know much about how players of older editions feel they were treated, and they probably don't much care, either. For one thing, not every customer of old feels put upon (I don't, for example). The ones who do feel put upon, I fear, paint themselves in such a poor light as to make the newer players... glad that they aren't around.

Pandering to an ever-reducing long tail of existing customers is market suicide if it means foregoing the acquistition of new buyers. If 30% of your existing base leaves, but you get 100% more buyers, and half of them stick around for a number of years, that's a success (especially since a lot of the departing buyers are, I'd bet a fair chunk of money, likely to return later with a hobby product like D&D).

Pandering to an established base is also creative suicide, insofar as it means abiding by 30-year-old concepts that have been well-explored. At some point, your primary inspiration becomes the franchise itself, and it starts eating its own tail.