What's the best fighter/mage class/Prc?

[WhatGravitas]

Cleric of the abstract philosophy of killing evil things and taking their stuff (grants the war and travel domains...).

On an almost unrelated note: I've done bards this way - clerics worshipping free spirit and arts. Expressed as Magic and Travel domain.

And yeah, the bard is a sort of fighter-mage - slower spell progression and 3/4 BAB, plus ability to cast without ASF in light armour. But compared to the other options, he's just plain bad.

Cheers, LT.

 

[moritheil]

You know, it really does depend on what you are aiming for. A Paladin/Battle Sorcerer is just fine if you want to only worry about one stat and would like high saves (though you'll have to figure out in advance how many levels of Paladin you want - I would suggest 4, so you're covered by Practiced Spellcaster.) Battle Sorcerer is a UA variant that allows you to cast in armor, and grants 3/4 BAB and d8 HD.

If it doesn't have to be arcane spellcasting, then psionics is quite nice. Take a look at Slayer, then look at Eldritch Knight - Slayer wins hands down. More hit points, better features, and psionics can be used with any armor with no failure chance.

The divine method is so simple that it's almost tiresome: simply be a druid or cleric, buff yourself up, and whale the tar out of your enemies. The only variations on the theme are the use of Divine Metamagic: Persistent or Divine Spell Power.

For power builds, Duskblade loses out heavily to actual wizard or sorc levels, because it stops at 6th level spells. It also does not include the crucial spell Wraithstrike, which both ensures you will hit and allows you to ignore damage reduction.

EDIT: It doesn't seem anyone has mentioned the Chameleon. If you want to build a "triple threat" fighter/rogue/mage type, then that class is worth looking into. It is something of an anomaly, as it does not help you qualify for feats/classes, and you don't gain the benefits of multiple classes from it until you attain the higher levels. It stops at 6th level casting, which as I mentioned before is a flaw, but it partially compensates by allowing any arcane spells to be used, not just Sor/Wiz ones.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage is a good choice IMO. It's only a 5-level class with a few moderately annoying entry requirements (Combat Casting) but it has some reasonable benefits.

I'm currently playing a duskblade/wizard character (headed for EK and AC prestige classes) in a Savage Tide campaign and I'm having a lot of fun. Starting with duskblade at first level really established the character's flavor and gave me a few tricks with low-level spells that continue to be useful.

One thing to decide: do you want more fighter, more mage, or a balance of both?

 

[rawgt3]

Hope you don't mind if I add to the OP idea but I've been thinking almost the same thing for my camp. : An agile graceful melee mage that uses spells to dart around the battlefield and attacks with a quick flurry of blows.. Wizard/Swashbuckler/Monk? Wizard/Monk? Wizard/Swashbuckler? Or maybe an unarmed Bladesinger? Just a thought.

 

[Arkhandus]

I like Monte Cook's "Mage Blade" core class from Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved.

The only gripes I have about it are minor; 1, it's Charisma-based despite being described as a trained spellcaster and warrior, not just a natural-born sorcerer-type; 2, its skill points and class skills kinda suck, which compounds the annoying focus on Charisma instead of Intelligence.

So it's a very skills-poor warrior-mage, but fairly solid in its warrior-mage role at least. A melee weapon they bond with and enchant slightly for free (just enhancement bonuses to attack and damage, but they're free), the ability to use that weapon for somatic spell components and avoid ASF from armor/shields that way, an ability to magically shield themselves on occasion, a few bonus feats over time, bard-like spellcasting progression (but up to 7th-level spells at the end), and a bit of magic-parrying and magic-defense-piercing with the bonded weapon at upper levels.

Well, I'm kinda irked that they suck a bit at 1st-level (like a bard...), but they definitely get better after the first few levels (and most spellcasters or hybrid casters kinda suck for the first few levels, anyhow).



Eldritch Knight is kinda strong I guess, but only after the first few levels (it isn't until 3rd or 4th level at least, that they start to clearly outmatch a fighter/wizard). But it's terribly bland and dull, not even an interesting skill list or the like. Overall, really, a cleric or druid makes a better melee combatant than an eldritch knight. A druid or pure wizard makes for a better ranged combatant, too. Also, the PrC takes too long to reach (7th level at least).

The Spellsword is kind of decent, but not as good in 3.5 and was never really quite effective enough. It is more interesting than the EK, though.

The Shadow Knight from the EverQuest RPG (it's OGL and heavily d20-based, but no d20 STL use because it has its own XP chart and such) is fairly compatible and fairly good, but kind of evilish and very necromantic in terms of its magic abilities.


The Duskblade from Player's Handbook II is a solid warrior-mage type, but overpowered in my opinion and just plain broken. They can be fine sometimes, at low levels, but Arcane Channeling is poorly detailed and potentially very broken. They get a ton of benefits at 1st-level and such, and a whole ton of spell slots as they go up in levels. Tons of swift-action spells and the ability to quick-cast some of their other spells as swift actions whenever it's convenient.

They have a full Base Attack Bonus, a cleric's d8 Hit Dice, two strong saving throws, a bonus to overcome SR after they've hit someone in melee, and the ability to cast freely with most armors and shields. They're basically an arcane cleric with more fighting ability (at least, without needing to cast a bunch of spells before each fight) and more hard-hitting and defense capacity, but no access to 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells. That would be fine if the only classes in use were Duskblade, Cleric, and Druid, but they're not....


Swordsages are the best warrior-mage class that isn't actually a spellcaster. ^_^

 

[Arkhandus]

Hope you don't mind if I add to the OP idea but I've been thinking almost the same thing for my camp. : An agile graceful melee mage that uses spells to dart around the battlefield and attacks with a quick flurry of blows.. Wizard/Swashbuckler/Monk? Wizard/Monk? Wizard/Swashbuckler? Or maybe an unarmed Bladesinger? Just a thought.

Well, you could go something like swordsage 1, ss1/swashbuckler 1, ss1/sw1/sorcerer 1, ss2/sw1/sor1, ss2/sw2/sor1, ss2/sw2/sor2, ss3/sw2/sor2, then continue further as a swordsage......or whatever. Martial stances like Step of the Wind (setting sun 1), Child of Shadow (shadow hand 1), Holocaust Cloak (desert wind 3), Pearl of Black Doubt (diamond mind 3), Assassin's Stance (shadow hand 3), and Absolute Steel Stance (iron heart 3) would really help, particularly that last one (a swordsage could take it through the Martial Stance feat, after gaining a Martial Study feat for some other iron heart maneuver, like Disarming Strike or Steel Wind). Maneuvers like Burning Blade, Wind Stride, Cloak of Deception, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful Strike, Zephyr Dance, and Flashing Sun would really help.

 

[Corsair]

Abjurant Champion, hands down, is the bestestest gish prestige class out there. It only costs you one feat, and in return you get some very awesome abilities: automatically swift abjurations up to 3rd level, +5 to AC from your abjurations. Those abilities alone would be enough for me. Extended Abjurations is just a side benefit. +9 AC from my shield spell, and I can cast it as a swift action? Yes please! That alone is worth the cost of admission.

 

[rgard]

Abjurant Champion, hands down, is the bestestest gish prestige class out there. It only costs you one feat, and in return you get some very awesome abilities: automatically swift abjurations up to 3rd level, +5 to AC from your abjurations. Those abilities alone would be enough for me. Extended Abjurations is just a side benefit. +9 AC from my shield spell, and I can cast it as a swift action? Yes please! That alone is worth the cost of admission.

Yes that is sweet. My favorite to play is the Battle Sorcerer. You will have 9th level spells at 19th level and hack as well as a cleric (3/4 bab.) I'll have to build one with a view to adding Abjurant Champion along the way.

 

[moritheil]

Eldritch Knight is kinda strong I guess, but only after the first few levels (it isn't until 3rd or 4th level at least, that they start to clearly outmatch a fighter/wizard). But it's terribly bland and dull, not even an interesting skill list or the like. Overall, really, a cleric or druid makes a better melee combatant than an eldritch knight. A druid or pure wizard makes for a better ranged combatant, too. Also, the PrC takes too long to reach (7th level at least).

I will respectfully disagree with the assertion that EK is of moderate strength, and point out that amongst CharOp builders EK is the class you take when you can't take anything else. If you compare it to other classes it has two major flaws: first, it does nothing to allow you to cast in armor, and second, you lose one caster level.

Now, those flaws can be mitigated by using other classes, but again, that just puts EK in the role of "what you take after you get what's important."

Putting 1 or 3 levels in Spellsword is far superior to putting those levels in EK. You might still have to finish up with EK, but most people will go through Spellsword and Ab Champ first - what they offer is far better (casting in armor, for Spellsword, and a massive caster level boost, for Ab Champ.)

Again, if you compare EK to the psionic equivalent (Slayer) its flaws become readily apparent: fewer hit points, lack of a cool thematic ability, no help with casting in armor. Psionics are also more ideal for playing the "blaster fighter" archetype; arcane fighters tend to be more buff-centered.

Raumathari Battlemage, War Wizard, and Suel Archanamach have not been mentioned yet, but they are solid choices.


This statement intrigues me:

The Duskblade from Player's Handbook II is a solid warrior-mage type, but overpowered in my opinion and just plain broken. . . . They're basically an arcane cleric with more fighting ability (at least, without needing to cast a bunch of spells before each fight) and more hard-hitting and defense capacity, but no access to 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells.

If all they are is clerics sans healing, what's broken about them? I found the duskblade to be significantly more powerful than a fighter, but still no match for a pure cleric or an optimized fighter/mage build at higher levels.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

The Duskblade from Player's Handbook II is a solid warrior-mage type, but overpowered in my opinion and just plain broken. They can be fine sometimes, at low levels, but Arcane Channeling is poorly detailed and potentially very broken. They get a ton of benefits at 1st-level and such, and a whole ton of spell slots as they go up in levels. Tons of swift-action spells and the ability to quick-cast some of their other spells as swift actions whenever it's convenient.

They have a full Base Attack Bonus, a cleric's d8 Hit Dice, two strong saving throws, a bonus to overcome SR after they've hit someone in melee, and the ability to cast freely with most armors and shields. They're basically an arcane cleric with more fighting ability (at least, without needing to cast a bunch of spells before each fight) and more hard-hitting and defense capacity, but no access to 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells. That would be fine if the only classes in use were Duskblade, Cleric, and Druid, but they're not....

Have you tried a Duskblade in practice? I'm playing one at the moment (just hit level 15), and they really aren't overpowered or broken. The 1st-level benefits are all very minor and mostly flavorful, and the tremendous amount of spell slots is compensated by the very focused (even narrow) spell list. (If you allow them to expand the list, though, things are likely to get out of hand quickly.)

They are very good at fighting (but not overwhelming by any measure; that d8 hit dice and the lack of buff spells and healing helps there), fun to play, and are perfectly playable from 1st to 20th level, with no need for multiclassing or PrCs.

What do you think is broken or unclear about the Arcane Channeling? If you mean the 13th-level ability to AC a touch spell in a full attack, you can only affect one target once with the spell, no matter how many times you hit them.