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Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?
- Thread starter Tonguez
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Nareau
Explorer
If the party is high enough level to reasonably take on 400 kobolds, they probably shouldn't be getting XP for it. It says something about this in the DMG, on the page with the XP charts. If you're looking for guidelines about "how tough will this battle be," I have no answers for you.
That said:
CR = Challenge Rating. Creatures with a CR of less than one are usually lumped together when there are enough of them. Kobolds are CR 1/6. So your horde will be:
400/6=66.7 CR 1 creatures.
ECL = Equivalent Character Level. This is used to determine the relative power level of monstrous characters. It is unrelated to your question, unless this army of kobolds is some kind of hive-mind.
EL = Encounter Level (?) This is the one you want.
The EL is equal to the CR if the encounter involves only 1 creature (treat 6 kobolds as 1 creature here, since they're only CR 1/6). For multiple identical creatures, the EL goes up by 2 every time you double the number of monsters.
SO: 6 kobolds would = EL 1. 12 Kobolds = EL 3. 24 = EL 5.
48: 7
96: 9
192: 11
384: 13
The EL, by this formula, would be 13. Again, these formulae really break down when you deal with high level characters vs. very weak enemies.
The idea of the EL system is this: A party of four X level characters should use up approximately 1/4 of their resources in an encounter of EL = X.
I can completely imagine a party of 13th level characters destroying 400 kobolds without breaking much of a sweat. But again, it really depends of the situation.
Spider
That said:
CR = Challenge Rating. Creatures with a CR of less than one are usually lumped together when there are enough of them. Kobolds are CR 1/6. So your horde will be:
400/6=66.7 CR 1 creatures.
ECL = Equivalent Character Level. This is used to determine the relative power level of monstrous characters. It is unrelated to your question, unless this army of kobolds is some kind of hive-mind.
EL = Encounter Level (?) This is the one you want.
The EL is equal to the CR if the encounter involves only 1 creature (treat 6 kobolds as 1 creature here, since they're only CR 1/6). For multiple identical creatures, the EL goes up by 2 every time you double the number of monsters.
SO: 6 kobolds would = EL 1. 12 Kobolds = EL 3. 24 = EL 5.
48: 7
96: 9
192: 11
384: 13
The EL, by this formula, would be 13. Again, these formulae really break down when you deal with high level characters vs. very weak enemies.
The idea of the EL system is this: A party of four X level characters should use up approximately 1/4 of their resources in an encounter of EL = X.
I can completely imagine a party of 13th level characters destroying 400 kobolds without breaking much of a sweat. But again, it really depends of the situation.
Spider
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Demon Knight
First Post
For encounters of that size, it's best not to assign a CR at all. If your PCs are fighting that many number of monsters at once, then you have to ask yourself how these 400 kobolds are organized enough to fight the PCs at once. IMO, if your PCs are so powerful that it requires 400 kobolds to be a challenge to them, then maybe you shouldnt throw kobolds at them...
IF you want a more technical answer, 400 kobolds would equal about a CR 12 encounter.
400 goblins = about CR 13
40 ogres = about CR 12 or 13
IF you want a more technical answer, 400 kobolds would equal about a CR 12 encounter.
400 goblins = about CR 13
40 ogres = about CR 12 or 13
Xael
First Post
Spider said:
I never really liked that. Imagine 400 kobolds with crossbows, surrounding the party. All the kobolds fire, and on average, 20 bolts hit (assuming they need 20 to hit, if they can hit easier...). That's still 20d6/8 damage, which is pretty much. Then imagine the next round, when party manages to kill maybe 50 of them (mostly due to area-effect spells). Ouch. And then, when they finally have won the battle and have about 1hp left, the DM tells them that they don't get any experience...
Or just make them swarm the them, and grapple the party! They will fall eventually...
*Goes to look the "gibberlings" entry in Monsters of Faerun*
Conclusion: That entry in the DMG is poop.
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Not taking into account the fact that the 13th level party will have Displacement, Improved Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall, or any number of effects that would reduce that 20.
And given that they'll all likely be Hasted, 50 per round sounds pretty low.
If the kobolds stay spread out and snipe, some of them might get away once the fireballs start flying. If they get in close to grapple, they will all die very quickly.
-Hyp.
Xael
First Post
Hypersmurf said:
Which would still make them use their resources. For nothing. And I wasn't really talking about the 13th level party, but let's use it for now.
How so? I don't know many characters with 400 attacks of opportunity per round. And if they grapple the wizard? The cleric? The rogue?
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Yeah, let's all dogpile the 13th level cleric, with his verbal-component-only Holy Word...
400 kobolds really, really spread out can avoid AoE spell mass carnage. But when they clump up, they die.
-Hyp.
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green slime
First Post
You could run 400 kobolds to challenge level 13 PCs.... Sure, they'd be dying like flies in the RAID factory, but boy would they irritate the hell out of the PCs...
Terrain plays an important part in such a battle. Seperate the PCs from each other: The mutual support PCs provide each other is incredible. Once seperated send the other players out of the room. Lots of players will freak out, when under pressure, when alone.
Alchemical substances are the lowly kobold's friend: just ranged touch attacks from Tangle footbags reduces speed by half, which makes chasing the little blighters around so much more difficult.
It also helps if there are a couple of tougher kobolds thrown into the mix: a sorcerer, an adept or the like.
Illusions or mock-ups of more powerful enemies to draw the Barbarian or Paladin away from the rest of the team, or just to draw firepower.
Of course where they get this suicidal desire to ruin the day of a powerful adventuring party, I don't know. But it is fun!
Terrain plays an important part in such a battle. Seperate the PCs from each other: The mutual support PCs provide each other is incredible. Once seperated send the other players out of the room. Lots of players will freak out, when under pressure, when alone.
Alchemical substances are the lowly kobold's friend: just ranged touch attacks from Tangle footbags reduces speed by half, which makes chasing the little blighters around so much more difficult.
It also helps if there are a couple of tougher kobolds thrown into the mix: a sorcerer, an adept or the like.
Illusions or mock-ups of more powerful enemies to draw the Barbarian or Paladin away from the rest of the team, or just to draw firepower.
Of course where they get this suicidal desire to ruin the day of a powerful adventuring party, I don't know. But it is fun!
Xael
First Post
Hypersmurf said:
Bah! Okay they die! But the main point is that they at least moderately annoy the characters, and make them use part of their resources. And they don't get anything for it, exept the pocket money of 400 kobolds.
*Note to self: Holy Word is a nice spell*
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I think this is a bad idea, but if you want to run this encounter, don't bother with EL. Run it, determine resources lost, then give out XP.
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