D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Hussar]

Let me inform you that this is grossly underestimating the work needed to calibrate the price lists for 5e. Thank you.

I'm actually curious if this is true. Because, well, there were three earlier examples that were dead, bang on for 5e prices. So, I'm going to do a bit of an experiment. Grab 10 random magic items - the ones that catch my eye is how I'm going to randomly pick, and then look at the price in 5e, the price in the d20 SRD and the price in the Pathfinder SRD (assuming it's different, I actually don't know if it is or not). So, this is going to take me a bit. Feel free to try it out yourself.

 

[Hussar]

I opened the book at random and the first pick was

Iron Bands of Billaro 5e Rare= 501-5000 gp 3e SRD 26000 gp (puts them in the Very Rare category) PFSRD: 26000 gp (again, bumps up one category)
Animated Shield: 5e Very Rare (5001-50000 gp) 3e SRD (Closest would be a +1 Animated Shield) 9000 gp PFSRD same:
Nolzur's Marvellous Pigments: 5e Very Rare (5001-50000 gp) 3e SRD 4000 gp PFSRD same
Ring of Warmth: 5e Uncommon (100-500 gp) 3e SRD Not available
Hat of Disguise: 5e Uncommon (101-500 gp) 3e SRD 1800 gp PFSRD: 1800 gp
Rope of Climbing: 5e Uncommon (101-500 gp) 3e SRD 3000 gp PFSRD: 3000 gp
Wand of Fireballs: 5e Rare (501-5000 gp) 3e SRD 5625 to 9000 gp (depending on caster level) PFSRD: same
Periap of Proof Against Poison: 5e Rare (501-5000 gp), 3e SRD 27000 gp PFSRD Same
Frost Brand - 5e Very Rare (5001-50000 gp) 3e SRD 27 375 gp (cost to create) PFSRD: Same
Ring of Feather Falling: 5e Rare (501-5000 gp) 3e SRD 2200 gp.

So, there you go. 10 random magic items. The 3e or Pathfinder SRD prices are either dead on, or slightly more expensive. Typically bumping magic items one rarity step. Not exactly a problem since this will keep power levels completely under control.

So, is that good enough for people? There's a complete list of magic items that works perfectly fine for 5e already out there, for free. No, it does not require a lot of work. It's either dead on or it's conservative, good enough either way.

 

[CapnZapp]

So, is that good enough for people? There's a complete list of magic items that works perfectly fine for 5e already out there, for free. No, it does not require a lot of work. It's either dead on or it's conservative, good enough either way.

No, it's not good for "people".

What on earth makes you think a simple gold comparison between items that in some cases work wildly different is in any way relevant? And why do you use the 5e prices as something useful as a comparison?

It might be good enough for you, which is supremely convenient since you don't care either way.

But "people" feel the 5e prices are complete trash, especially since they're rarity based and not utility based.

You are making yourself a mouthpiece for players you don't understand. You claim the problem is solved because your half-ass solution is good enough for you.

You come across as completely preposterous and a giant troller.

Until you come to accept that there's a certain playstyle that WotC have dropped (as in "used to support but does not anylonger") I want you to stay out of a discussion you have clearly shown you are either incapable of understanding or that you don't give a rat's ass about.

 

[Hussar]

No, it's not good for "people".

What on earth makes you think a simple gold comparison between items that in some cases work wildly different is in any way relevant? And why do you use the 5e prices as something useful as a comparison?

It might be good enough for you, which is supremely convenient since you don't care either way.

But "people" feel the 5e prices are complete trash, especially since they're rarity based and not utility based.

You are making yourself a mouthpiece for players you don't understand. You claim the problem is solved because your half-ass solution is good enough for you.

You come across as completely preposterous and a giant troller.

Until you come to accept that there's a certain playstyle that WotC have dropped (as in "used to support but does not anylonger") I want you to stay out of a discussion you have clearly shown you are either incapable of understanding or that you don't give a rat's ass about.

Wait, what?

Now you're claiming that the values in the DMG are completely bogus, despite the fact that they line up virtually exactly with 3e's values? Most of the items I looked at work exactly the same in 5e as they do in 3e. The only difference between a 5e Frost Brand and a 3e one is the +3 to hit and damage. Considering bounded accuracy, that's a wash. Which of the items I listed are completely different in how they work?

Good grief, how do you get the idea that rarity doesn't equal utility? Have you actually looked at how they value items? Rarity is 100% based on utility. The more powerful the item, the more rare it is. Always. Rarity is entirely decided by utility. If it wasn't wouldn't magic swords be a heck of a lot more common than, say, wands? After all, virtually everyone can use a sword, but only wizards (well, mostly wizards) can use a wand. Yet, swords are often more rare than wands. Who's making all these wands for sale?

I get the feeling that no matter what is presented, you won't be satisfied. Do you really think that if WOTC does produce a price list for magic items, it won't follow the rarity values in the DMG? That they'll decide that a Frost Brand should be less than 5000 gp? Really?

Sorry, you asked for a price list and I gave you one. It is perfectly functional. Where you are getting the idea of "trolling" from I have no idea. This isn't preposterous at all. Sure, WOTC isn't directly supporting what you want. i gave you an alternative that would work fine. It's not like 5e character wealth is all that different from 3e. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't follow 3e guidelines here.

 

[CapnZapp]

Wait, what?

Now you're claiming that the values in the DMG are completely bogus, despite the fact that they line up virtually exactly with 3e's values? Most of the items I looked at work exactly the same in 5e as they do in 3e. The only difference between a 5e Frost Brand and a 3e one is the +3 to hit and damage. Considering bounded accuracy, that's a wash. Which of the items I listed are completely different in how they work?

Good grief, how do you get the idea that rarity doesn't equal utility? Have you actually looked at how they value items? Rarity is 100% based on utility. The more powerful the item, the more rare it is. Always. Rarity is entirely decided by utility. If it wasn't wouldn't magic swords be a heck of a lot more common than, say, wands? After all, virtually everyone can use a sword, but only wizards (well, mostly wizards) can use a wand. Yet, swords are often more rare than wands. Who's making all these wands for sale?

I get the feeling that no matter what is presented, you won't be satisfied. Do you really think that if WOTC does produce a price list for magic items, it won't follow the rarity values in the DMG? That they'll decide that a Frost Brand should be less than 5000 gp? Really?

Sorry, you asked for a price list and I gave you one. It is perfectly functional. Where you are getting the idea of "trolling" from I have no idea. This isn't preposterous at all. Sure, WOTC isn't directly supporting what you want. i gave you an alternative that would work fine. It's not like 5e character wealth is all that different from 3e. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't follow 3e guidelines here.

No, YOU think that.

YOU choose to ignore anyone telling you that for their game, it's not what they need.

Instead YOU tell people what is best for them, despite showing no signs of actually understanding their concerns.

This means YOU have exhausted my patience. Good bye.

 

[Hussar]

No, YOU think that.

YOU choose to ignore anyone telling you that for their game, it's not what they need.

Instead YOU tell people what is best for them, despite showing no signs of actually understanding their concerns.

This means YOU have exhausted my patience. Good bye.

Again, what?

You claim to want price lists for the magic items in the 5e DMG. The 5e DMG does come with price ranges for crafting items. They're pretty broad ranges, and certainly, in and of themselves, not terribly useful. Fair enough. But, since there actually IS a price list for the items in the 5e DMG in the 3e rules, which follow the prices set out in 5e, what's the problem?

What exactly do you need, if it's not a price list? What do you want? What, exactly, would your price list look like?

 

[Wicht]

Page 184 of the book chapter that [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION] linked to upthread states that

when Count Odo of Champagne in 1033 sacked and burned Commercy, amidst the booty was the arm of St. Pantalon . . . this sacred booty might be treated exactly like other spoils — the arm of Pantalon, for example, was subsequently sold to Abbot Richard of St. Vanne in Verdun for one
silver mark.​

So the going price looks to be in the general neighbourhood of 1 gp! (Allowing that a mark is somewhere between 10 and 20 shillings.)

Actually as the mark was a silver coin, technically it would be 1 sp.
Also everyone knows that you sell loot for 50% of actual value, so the value would be 2 sp.

That does make me wonder what the comparative value of said coin was at that time. Also, was that the market value or just an easy sell to get it unloaded? I suspect the latter. Still and all, as in art, its impossible to accurately convey value through the sell of a single piece. A painting gets unloaded for a thousand bucks on ebay... What does that tell us about the price of the Mona Lisa? And obviously some relics were valued much higher, as evidenced by the rather extravagant reliquaries built to house them. None of which calculates the value of the tourist trade brought on by any single notable piece.

 

[CapnZapp]

Again, what?

You claim to want price lists for the magic items in the 5e DMG. The 5e DMG does come with price ranges for crafting items. They're pretty broad ranges, and certainly, in and of themselves, not terribly useful. Fair enough. But, since there actually IS a price list for the items in the 5e DMG in the 3e rules, which follow the prices set out in 5e, what's the problem?

What exactly do you need, if it's not a price list? What do you want? What, exactly, would your price list look like?

Are you truly sincere? Are you prepared to drop your quick solutions and proclamations that there is no problem? If you really ask because you wish me to explain, then I will gladly do so.

This thread is, essentially, asking what you can spend lots and lots of gold on. Right?

The assumption is that adventure after adventure hand out a lot of gold (tens and hundreds of thousands of gold pieces if you believe the DMG). Certainly lots of home games exists where the heroes always feel poor, but this thread isn't relevant there.

Now, there exists a share of D&D players playing the game in a certain way. This way involves playing published module after published module. There is little interest in detailing what the heroes do between adventures, and indeed, there often isn't any excess time to spend either. Thus any suggestion to spend gold on downtime activities are perhaps well-meant, but not applicable for this share of the customer base.

What this particular playing style needs and wants is ways to quickly spend your gold on things that actually make your adventuring life easier. For the sake of argument, let's say this involves magic items only.

This edition already contains the magic items and hands out the gold, so all that's needed is a way to price these items in some way that makes useful items cost more than less useful items. But we want more, we don't just want a price list, we want to know why and how a certain item was given a certain price.

What we want and need is a pricing mechanism.

This set of guidelines can't be based on rarity or collector value. All those factors can be used to MODIFY prices, but step one will always be to calculate an "objective" price for a certain item. (Objective being an ideal rather than an attainable goal, as I am sure you understand).

In short, we need a set of formulas much like the ones in 3e.

HOWEVER, the items themselves have changed. The GAME has changed. You can't simply use the 3e mechanisms to calculate price and then use that in 5e.

I want a completely updated set of guidelines relevant to how magic items work in 5e. THEN individual DMs can modify those prices. In fact they can completely ignore the set of guidelines completely, especially since they won't be found in the DMG.

One trivial example of differences between editions: plusses go only from +1 to +3 and not up to +5.

But even this trivial example betrays hidden complexities. A lot of the power of a +1 Longsword in 5e is because it is magical, and ignores non-magical resistance. The 3e formula was created under different assumptions, since every 3.0 critter said something like +3/30. Which means that the critter resists 30 points of damage of every hit from a weapon that is less than +3.

Not only is "half damage" different from "resist N damage". But ALL of the resistance is frontloaded right away on ANY magical weapon (with few exceptions).

And the utility of the plusses themselves have changed in intricate ways. On one hand, a +1 is still a +1; the basic d20 die roll haven't changed. On the other hand, advantage wasn't a thing in 3e. On the third hand, this socalled "bounded accuracy" means every +1 is more valuable than before.

All this adds up to one thing:

Making a set of utility-based price formulas for 5e is not trivial. In fact, I bet it's a huge challenge even to get to the debated level of fairness 3e got to.

It is probably within my ability to create this list. But I certainly wish I don't have to.

I would far prefer someone to do the work for me, for several reasons. The obvious one is spelled "laziness"... But seriously: I want an OFFICIAL solution that is shared by everyone. I want a COMMERCIAL solution so there's somebody to hold accountable for any errors.

Hopefully this answers your questions.

 

[Hussar]

I would far prefer someone to do the work for me, for several reasons. The obvious one is spelled "laziness"... But seriously: I want an OFFICIAL solution that is shared by everyone. I want a COMMERCIAL solution so there's somebody to hold accountable for any errors.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?424641-What-s-the-point-of-gold/page56#ixzz3UHS5M28o

And that, right there, that quote right there, is why you will likely never, ever see such a list. Because if you put five people together and asked them to price a given item, you would get six different answers. Is a Hat of Disguise worth more, less or the same as a Rope of Climbing? How much more or less? Good luck creating a formula for that. See, the 3e rules didn't give you a formula based on utility at all. The formula, such as it was, was still largely guesswork. And, despite hundreds of hours, actually thousands of hours of game play and TWO major play tests, they still haven't gotten it right (between 3e, 3.5 and Pathfinder).

The odds that four or five guys sitting in an office in Renton will succeed when hundreds of people working for thousands of hours failed are very, very bad.

So, WOTC's pretty much screwed no matter what they do. If they give you what you want, they'll get crucified and "held accountable for any errors". The last four or five years have proven just how far people will go to crucify WOTC for perceived mistakes. If they don't give you what you want, but, instead give broad guidelines, the worst thing that happens is people bitch about not having fixed prices.

I honestly hope that they can satisfy you. I really do. Everyone should get what they want. But, I'm also not holding my breath here. Satisfying you will mean that fifteen other people are really pissed off because they got the numbers wrong.

AFAIC, I'd simply use the 3e numbers. They might be a bit off, but, at the end of the day, they're probably pretty close. Certainly workable.

 

[Remathilis]

In short, we need a set of formulas much like the ones in 3e.

Which proved to be absolutely useless. The formulas were unable to begin to account for the variety of abilities even items in the DMG had, and they could be ripe for abuse. Grab your 3e DMG and look at the price table. Make a robe with permanent mage armor (Caster level 1st) and compare it to +4 bracers of armor and tell me the formulas balanced anything.

I would far prefer someone to do the work for me, for several reasons. The obvious one is spelled "laziness"... But seriously: I want an OFFICIAL solution that is shared by everyone. I want a COMMERCIAL solution so there's somebody to hold accountable for any errors.

I want WotC to make me a 5e compatible version of Ravenloft and the Mystara Monsters Compendium, but I'm not holding my breath for either. Get cracking on that list.