D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Statistical significance is not the definition I’m using here, it’s just a random third example of a definition of significant, one that is also objective. The one I am using here is”having a particular meaning; indicative of something.” Like I said.

That one is not objective, either. "Particular meaning" is subjective. What has a particular meaning to you, might not have the same meaning to me. Look at the example given for that definition.

2. having a particular meaning; indicative of something.
"in times of stress her dreams seemed to her especially significant"

What do I care what you dream meant to you. It was particularly meaningful in your life, but it means diddly squat in mine.

I will gladly “admit” that the rules are not worthy of attention for everyone. I’ve never claimed otherwise. But it makes no sense to claim that the rules are only indicative of something to some people. They are either indicative or they are not, it is an objective quality.

Let's take initiative. What does it indicate for everyone? As people are so fond of telling me, people interpret rules differently, so even the text very often doesn't have a single, objective meaning. This is especially true in 5e where the game was designed not to have particular meaning. "Rulings over rules" and all that jazz.

“Non-mechanical elements don’t have a particular meaning within the system of game mechanics” is not a positive claim, the burden of proof is not on me. I also don’t think it’s particularly outlandish to claim that things that aren’t mechanics don’t have meaning within systems of mechanics. It may or may not have meaning to you personally, but that’s not what I’m talking about. Again, tell me what word you want me to use instead of “significant” to mean, “means something in terms of the rules system” and I’ll gladly use it instead, because I’m getting pretty sick of this bickering over semantics.

It's not semantics. As noted above, "particular meaning" is very subjective. Alignment has very particular meaning for many people, but doesn't mean much of anything to me. Despite there being no mechanics in 5e for it, alignment does have particular meaning.

I didn’t say without a roll. I said without a formula. If there is a number about be which the guard will accept and below which the guard won’t accept, that’s a formula. A basic formula, but a formula. If that number can be changed by player actions, that’s a more complex formula. If the outcome relies on a randomly generated number (a dice roll), that’s a more complex formula. But the simple if/then statement if gold offered is >=#, then bribe is accepted is a formula all on its own. That’s a game mechanic. Not all game mechanics involve dice and modifiers.

What formula did I use to come up with a yes or no? As noted by [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION], there are too many factors to consider to even be able set down some sort of formula. You can give 10 DMs the same circumstances, and you will have some automatically say yes, some automatically say no, and some give a roll with varying DCs. That's not formulaic in any way.

No individual rule is essential to play D&D, but some individual rules are essential to the function of subsystems of rules, and certain subsystems of rules are essential to the identity of D&D. As evidenced by the overal community reactions to 4e. Some critical mass of different rules made it “not real D&D” to a significant portion of the fans. Likewise, if you changed or removed every individual rule in D&D, you’d have a very hard time trying to make a case that what you’re playing is D&D.

For every "It's not real D&D" that I heard about 4e, I also heard "Yes this is real D&D" from someone else. If that's not indicative that "What D&D is" is subjective, I don't know what is.

The way your are talking about them as two things, one of which you might have a preference for over the other, is where our views of roleplaying and mechanics fundamentally diverges. In my view, one can’t “prefer the mechanics over the roleplay” as there is no distinction.

There absolutely is a distinction. Roll D20 + ability modifier and if you equal or exceed AC, you hit, is not roleplaying. It's a mechanic for attacks. In the game when you tell me that you swing your sword at Brave Sir Robbin's head while calling him a yellow bellied sap sucker, it's roleplaying. Only the other side, when a PC and an NPC simply have a talk about something, that's roleplaying without any mechanics whatsoever.

Oh, my bad. I apologize for misconstruing your argument.

No worries. I THINK it might have been [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] if it matters. Not positive, though.

*sigh* I was using the general form of the word “you.”

General or specific, I still don't have to do any work to make it matter. It already matters within the rules as provided to me.

It really doesn’t though, for reasons I have already discussed - they are trivially inexpensive (which I know is a problem that can be fixed by distributing less gold, but a. that’s work on my part to adjust and b. It’s only half the problem) and they offer no benefits or consequences with mechanical impact (which I know I could make up, but again, that’s more work on my part.) So, again, we comeback to, “if ONE wants gold to have a use that has relevance within the system of mechanics known as D&D 5e, ONE has to do the work to make it so themselves.” This is not a condemnation of anyone’s playbstyle preferences. If you don’t mind that the uses for gold are purely narrative, that’s absolutely fine. Great, even. Enjoy the game catering to your preferences. Please don’t tell ME I’m wrong for lamenting that I don’t have anything I consider worth spending gold on.

Downtime includes building freaking castles, buying land, building temples in every city of every country, and more. That's not trivially inexpensive.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
Re this...

"No worries. I THINK it might have been [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] if it matters. Not positive, though."

I doubt it.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
That one is not objective, either. "Particular meaning" is subjective. What has a particular meaning to you, might not have the same meaning to me. Look at the example given for that definition.

2. having a particular meaning; indicative of something.
"in times of stress her dreams seemed to her especially significant"

What do I care what you dream meant to you. It was particularly meaningful in your life, but it means diddly squat in mine.
Jesus Christ! “Meaning” also has an objective definition. As in, for example, “the meaning of the word.” I’m not talking about what a rule means to you personally, I’m talking about the specific game function it signifies. But f*** it! I don’t care enough about this incessant nitpicking about my word choice. If you want to pretend meaning and significance can never be objective, fine, but for the love of god, just tell me what word you want me to use to mean “is important to the rules system” so we can get on with the f***ing point!

Let's take initiative. What does it indicate for everyone?
It indicates how likely a character is to act before other characters and monsters in combat.

As people are so fond of telling me, people interpret rules differently, so even the text very often doesn't have a single, objective meaning. This is especially true in 5e where the game was designed not to have particular meaning. "Rulings over rules" and all that jazz.
People interpret rules differently, but there are correct interpretations and incorrect interpretations. It would be incorrect to interpret higher initiative as indicating that a character is less likely to act first in combat, or that a character with a lower attack bonus is more likely to hit. One would be within their rights as a DM to change the rules such that they woeked that way in their home game, but they would be objectively wrong if they claimed that was how it works by the rules as written.

It's not semantics. As noted above, "particular meaning" is very subjective. Alignment has very particular meaning for many people, but doesn't mean much of anything to me. Despite there being no mechanics in 5e for it, alignment does have particular meaning.
That is a semantic argument. You are trying to refute my argument by asserting that the words I used to articulate it don’t mean what I think they mean. And I’m done playing that game. Tell me what word you will accept as meaning “has a function within the game’s mechanics” and I’ll use it. Otherwise, we have nothing left to discuss on this matter.

What formula did I use to come up with a yes or no?
I told you, “If gold offered is => [the value you decide the guard will accept], then guard accepts.” Your formula may or may not include certain actions that can increase or decrease the value referenced in the brackets, possibly depending on the results of a randomly generated number (a check). Just because you can apply formulae flexibly and without conscious effort does not mean you are not executing a mechanical function. The human brain is an incredibly powerful and adaptable computer, which is why D&D is, in my opinion, better than any video game. The hardware it runs on is capable of interpreting any input and intuitively divising a function to execute it on the fly.

As noted by [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION], there are too many factors to consider to even be able set down some sort of formula. You can give 10 DMs the same circumstances, and you will have some automatically say yes, some automatically say no, and some give a roll with varying DCs. That's not formulaic in any way.
Those DMs are using different formulae. Much like if you put the same input phrase into 10 chat bots, you’ll get many different responses. That’s the nature of smart learning systems, they will produce different results from one another because they have learned from different experiences.

For every "It's not real D&D" that I heard about 4e, I also heard "Yes this is real D&D" from someone else. If that's not indicative that "What D&D is" is subjective, I don't know what is.
That is true. But very, very few would agree that a collaborative storytelling session with no rules at all is D&D. Even fewer would agree that a game played using the GURPS system is D&D.

There absolutely is a distinction. Roll D20 + ability modifier and if you equal or exceed AC, you hit, is not roleplaying. It's a mechanic for attacks. In the game when you tell me that you swing your sword at Brave Sir Robbin's head while calling him a yellow bellied sap sucker, it's roleplaying. Only the other side, when a PC and an NPC simply have a talk about something, that's roleplaying without any mechanics whatsoever.
Look, I could break down all the reasons I disagree with the things you say in this paragraph, but I don’t think anything either of us could say will change the other’s mind about this. The only reason I brought it up at all was because you were framing me as preferring mechanics over roleplay, and I wanted to make it clear that that is not the case. Roleplay is the reason I play D&D, and in my view, the mechanics cannot be separated from that. I suppose, if you had to frame me within your view, I consider roleplaying and mechanics as equally important, but it would be more accurate to say that I consider roleplaying to be of primary importance and the mechanics of a roleplaying game to be an inseparable part of that.

No worries. I THINK it might have been [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] if it matters. Not positive, though.
It was Jester David. I can’t even see 5ekyu’s posts, they have me blocked.

General or specific, I still don't have to do any work to make it matter. It already matters within the rules as provided to me.
Then you, Maxperson, are not included in the general “you, who find the use of gold to be lacking” that I was using. But whatever. It’s fine, I’ll use “one” in place of the general form of you. I’m done arguing with you about what words mean.

Downtime includes building freaking castles, buying land, building temples in every city of every country, and more. That's not trivially inexpensive.
Sure, there are some big-ticket things you can spend gold on in downtime, but again, lack of scarcity is only half the problem. The other half is lack of mechanical functionality in the things you can buy.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I told you, “If gold offered is => [the value you decide the guard will accept], then guard accepts.” Your formula may or may not include certain actions that can increase or decrease the value referenced in the brackets, possibly depending on the results of a randomly generated number (a check). Just because you can apply formulae flexibly and without conscious effort does not mean you are not executing a mechanical function. The human brain is an incredibly powerful and adaptable computer, which is why D&D is, in my opinion, better than any video game. The hardware it runs on is capable of interpreting any input and intuitively divising a function to execute it on the fly.

Those DMs are using different formulae. Much like if you put the same input phrase into 10 chat bots, you’ll get many different responses. That’s the nature of smart learning systems, they will produce different results from one another because they have learned from different experiences.

Sure, there are some big-ticket things you can spend gold on in downtime, but again, lack of scarcity is only half the problem. The other half is lack of mechanical functionality in the things you can buy.

So, I don't agree with you that my coming up with reasons that I base my decisions off of is a formula, but for the sake of argument I will accept it for the purposes of this post. A formula is a mechanic, so what you are arguing is that whenever I come up with reasons, I am using a mechanic. If that's the case, then the current gold rules use mechanics for both resolution and functionality. If you as a player wish to build temples for your PC in 4 cities, it's a formula(mechanic) that I use to tell you how much it will cost. When I then figure out how building those temples will affect your PC in various ways, I am using various formulae to figure out the mechanical functionality of what you did with your gold.

Since you have just argued that there are mechanics for both resolution and functionality for what you can buy with gold, the problem you are having should go away, right?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
So, I don't agree with you that my coming up with reasons that I base my decisions off of is a formula, but for the sake of argument I will accept it for the purposes of this post. Well, that’s not going to get us very far, because that’s not how I just defined a formula. A formula is a mechanic, so what you are arguing is that whenever I come up with reasons, I am using a mechanic. If that's the case, then the current gold rules use mechanics for both resolution and functionality. If you as a player wish to build temples for your PC in 4 cities, it's a formula(mechanic) that I use to tell you how much it will cost. When I then figure out how building those temples will affect your PC in various ways, I am using various formulae to figure out the mechanical functionality of what you did with your gold.
I’d say that’s an oversimplification of the view of formulae and mechanics I presented, but the conclusion you come to is still more or less accurate. And guess who is coming up with and applying those formulae on the fly? You. Or whoever else is DMing. So, the conclusion that we arrive at is, as I have been saying for six goddamn pages, gold only matters* if the DM makes it matter*.

*”matter” defined here as “have a mechanical function within the D&D 5e rules system.” I’d have used your preferred word in place of “matter” here, but you still haven’t given me one.

Since you have just argued that there are mechanics for both resolution and functionality for what you can buy with gold, the problem you are having should go away, right?
No, because the game is still making me do the work to give those things a mechanical function, which has been my complaint from the beginning. Of course I can give gold a mechanical function on my own, or by using rules from 3rd party publishers, but it does not have one within the rules as written in the rule books published by WotC.
 
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Sadras

Legend
If I understand you correctly...

I want three things out of an RPG economy:
• Lifestyle expenses that are significant compared to the amount of wealth the players earn

As others have already mentioned this can be done by significantly reducing the treasure parcels from adventuring and/or increasing the lifestyle expenditure table.

• Mechanical and/or consequences for lifestyles

i.e. So acting ostentatious or like a pauper may have negative or positive mechanical effects that effect your social checks within a settlement or the types of adventuring offers that are made or the cost of services afforded to you or your fame/reputation.
Excessive socialising might improve ones network but could also attract the ire of the clergy, attract communicable disease, attract opportunists (thieves, charlatans...etc).

• Alternative expenses, such as equipment, goods, and services with significant cost and mechanical benefits.

So masterwork items and specialised services.
(a) melee weapons that may provide a +1 damage or range weapons that increase range by x;
(b) armour that is much lighter;
(c) clothing that provides a bonus/negative on persuasion checks (depending on the area);
(d) specialised clothing for terrain (where std clothing in such terrain would incur disadvantage)
(e) oil that lasts 1.5 times as long
(f) a steed with 5' extra movement, OR +5 more hit points, OR that does +1 damage, OR whose Dexterity has an additional +1 modifier;
(g) services of specialist armourer whose maintenance provides additional 2 points of prevention damage for 5 hits;
(h) services of a greater sage, whose valuable information affords you a single inspiration point when dealing with the monster you sought advice for;
(i) fine hearty meal at a diner whose consumption recovers a hit point or HD;
(j) a lecture from an priest elder whose powerfully inspiring words recover short rest abilities;
(k) an evening of the finest entertainment the city can afford, gaining advantage on one social roll the next day;
(l) well illustrated map with heavy notations on a particular area, providing a +1 on survival checks for the journey;
(m) spellbook of exceptional quality and made from rare material which is perhaps lighter in weight and allows for more spells;

Is this the kind of mechanics and/or consequences to the RPG economy you are seeking?
 
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5ekyu

Hero
If I understand you correctly...



As others have already mentioned this can be done by significantly reducing the treasure parcels from adventuring and/or increasing the lifestyle expenditure table.



i.e. So acting ostentatious or like a pauper may have negative or positive mechanical effects that effect your social checks within a settlement or the types of adventuring offers that are made or the cost of services afforded to you or your fame/reputation.
Excessive socialising might improve ones network but could also attract the ire of the clergy, attract communicable disease, attract opportunists (thieves, charlatans...etc).



So masterwork items and specialised services.
(a) melee weapons that may provide a +1 damage or range weapons that increase range by x;
(b) armour that is much lighter;
(c) clothing that provides a bonus/negative on persuasion checks (depending on the area);
(d) specialised clothing for terrain (where std clothing in such terrain would incur disadvantage)
(e) oil that lasts 1.5 times as long
(f) a steed with 5' extra movement, OR +5 more hit points, OR that does +1 damage, OR whose Dexterity has an additional +1 modifier;
(g) services of specialist armourer whose maintenance provides additional 2 points of prevention damage for 5 hits;
(h) services of a greater sage, whose valuable information affords you a single inspiration point when dealing with the monster you sought advice for;
(i) fine hearty meal at a diner whose consumption recovers a hit point or HD;
(j) a lecture from an priest elder whose powerfully inspiring words recover short rest abilities;
(k) an evening of the finest entertainment the city can afford, gaining advantage on one social roll the next day;
(l) well illustrated map with heavy notations on a particular area, providing a +1 on survival checks for the journey;
(m) spellbook of exceptional quality and made from rare material which is perhaps lighter in weight and allows for more spells;

Is this the kind of mechanics and/or consequences to the RPG economy you are seeking?
If one looks at Xsnathars one will find quite a few "tool" proficiency uses that provide benefits- including shoes, including meals, etc. off the top of my head.
One can also find prices for skilled craftsmen services there iirc or maybe that was DMG.

Bonuses to HP on HD spent, marching time extensions etc.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I’d say that’s an oversimplification of the view of formulae and mechanics I presented, but the conclusion you come to is still more or less accurate. And guess who is coming up with and applying those formulae on the fly? You. Or whoever else is DMing. So, the conclusion that we arrive at is, as I have been saying for six goddamn pages, gold only matters* if the DM makes it matter*.

Okay, but nothing matters unless the DM makes it matter. The DM comes up with or allows every mechanic in the game. It doesn't matter if it's written down or in the DM's head, it's still not going to matter unless the DM makes it matter.

*”matter” defined here as “have a mechanical function within the D&D 5e rules system.” I’d have used your preferred word in place of “matter” here, but you still haven’t given me one.

I'm not sure there really is a word that fits. It seems that you just prefer that codify as much as possible, which runs contrary to the design intent of 5e.

No, because the game is still making me do the work to give those things a mechanical function, which has been my complaint from the beginning. Of course I can give gold a mechanical function on my own, or by using rules from 3rd party publishers, but it does not have one within the rules as written in the rule books published by WotC.
There are millions, and probably billions of things and combinations of things that can occur in a game that aren't written is rules in the game. The DM currentl has to make all of them matter if/when they come up. Do you want all of them written down by WotC in the rulebook? If not, why does how to come up with gold spending on a temple warrant a rule, but where how to come up with whether or not an NPC knows and will answer the PCs doesn't warrant a rule?
 

Sadras

Legend
If one looks at Xsnathars one will find quite a few "tool" proficiency uses that provide benefits- including shoes, including meals, etc. off the top of my head.
One can also find prices for skilled craftsmen services there iirc or maybe that was DMG.

Bonuses to HP on HD spent, marching time extensions etc.

Yeah I recently acquired it. Just have to invest the time to go through it, life being a little too chaotic of late.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
If I understand you correctly...



As others have already mentioned this can be done by significantly reducing the treasure parcels from adventuring and/or increasing the lifestyle expenditure table.



i.e. So acting ostentatious or like a pauper may have negative or positive mechanical effects that effect your social checks within a settlement or the types of adventuring offers that are made or the cost of services afforded to you or your fame/reputation.
Excessive socialising might improve ones network but could also attract the ire of the clergy, attract communicable disease, attract opportunists (thieves, charlatans...etc).



So masterwork items and specialised services.
(a) melee weapons that may provide a +1 damage or range weapons that increase range by x;
(b) armour that is much lighter;
(c) clothing that provides a bonus/negative on persuasion checks (depending on the area);
(d) specialised clothing for terrain (where std clothing in such terrain would incur disadvantage)
(e) oil that lasts 1.5 times as long
(f) a steed with 5' extra movement, OR +5 more hit points, OR that does +1 damage, OR whose Dexterity has an additional +1 modifier;
(g) services of specialist armourer whose maintenance provides additional 2 points of prevention damage for 5 hits;
(h) services of a greater sage, whose valuable information affords you a single inspiration point when dealing with the monster you sought advice for;
(i) fine hearty meal at a diner whose consumption recovers a hit point or HD;
(j) a lecture from an priest elder whose powerfully inspiring words recover short rest abilities;
(k) an evening of the finest entertainment the city can afford, gaining advantage on one social roll the next day;
(l) well illustrated map with heavy notations on a particular area, providing a +1 on survival checks for the journey;
(m) spellbook of exceptional quality and made from rare material which is perhaps lighter in weight and allows for more spells;

Is this the kind of mechanics and/or consequences to the RPG economy you are seeking?
Yes, these are some good examples of the sort of things I’d like to see available for purchase.
 

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