D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
If they are going in a direction anyway, it's not a railroad. A railroad happens if they CANNOT go off the rails and into a different direction.
Hypothetical scenario: a DM prepares a game that is not set up to handle a change of direction we’ll. If the players decide to do something he didn’t expect, he’s not going to be able to accommodate. If his players do not end up going off-script, is the game still a railroad? I would argue yes, this DM judt got lucky that his players didn’t notice. This is why I say a railroad is only a problem if the players want to go somewhere other than where it’s headed.

No. I'm saying half to two thirds of my game doesn't involve using much in the way of book mechanics. There is a lot of roleplaying where no rolls happen, swords and other magic items don't come into play, etc., but where things like PC castles, temples and so on, would come into play. I and my players enjoy a good fight, but we don't do tons of fights like some other groups do.
Sounds like a fun game, then. If you think I wouldn’t like a game where there is minimal dice rolling and combat isn’t the main focus, you haven’t understood me at all.

There isn't a rule in the game(or lack of one) that isn't a problem for some number of people. You can't please everyone, nor should you try. As for the "money is not useful" critique, it's because it's presented as a general issue, which it isn't. If a majority of people find money to be useful in 5e, then it doesn't really qualify as a general issue.
This presupposes that the majority of players don’t find it to be a problem, which we don’t have enough data to be able to take as a given. Even if we start from that assumption, how big is that majority? Evidently not that big, as this critique is extremely common, and keeps popping back up in conversation about 5e. DMs regularly ask for advice on how to get their players invested in the treasure. Finally, even if we accept the premise that it’s not a general issue (which I don’t, but for the sake of argument). Should the minority who does find it to be a problem not be allowed to discuss solutions to it on these forums, with other DMs who have experienced the same issue? Because that’s where we’re at right now. Someone expressed an issue they were experiencing with the default rules, and a bunch of folks want to tell them it’s not a real issue and shaming them for wanting mechanics in their game.

For the people who do find it to be an issue, @lowkey13 is right. Past products are a wealth of information and help. I STILL use the Encyclopedia Magica and probably always will. I go back to my 2e stuff for lore all the time. Personally, I've found official magic item pricing to be horrible, so I've had to come up with my own prices for things since 3e came out, and the magic item pricing in Xanthar's hasn't changed that, though the rest of the magic item purchasing rules in Xanthar's seem solid to me.
Great. Thanks for the input. I would still prefer 5e offer this kind of thing.

Have you looked at what Xanthar's has for downtime activities? It's pretty easy to just adapt that to uptime and have at it.
I have, and they are very much not the kind of thing I’m looking for. In fact, they’re quite the opposite. I want downtime activities to be simple and easy to resolve, and to have an explicit mechanical impact on uptime. The XGtE downtime rules make downtime activities more complex and involved, and still don’t have any real effect on the adventure. I was able to cannibalize the section on magic item rewards and purchasing/crafting magic items to cobble together some actual useful guidelines on magic item pricing, though that’s of minimal value to me since I don’t generally make magic items available for general purpose.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Hypothetical scenario: a DM prepares a game that is not set up to handle a change of direction we’ll. If the players decide to do something he didn’t expect, he’s not going to be able to accommodate. If his players do not end up going off-script, is the game still a railroad? I would argue yes, this DM judt got lucky that his players didn’t notice. This is why I say a railroad is only a problem if the players want to go somewhere other than where it’s headed.

See, I would need more than this hypothetical to be able to answer that question. If he's not set up to handle a change of direction, I need to know why? If it's because they are in the underdark and they have no way of getting out, then it's not a railroad not to accommodate a desire to leave and set up a garden. If they are in a town and the DM hasn't set up up anything else nearby, I would not call that a railroad, since as far as I'm concerned, the DM can improv until the end of the night and set things up before the next game. If the DM just refuses to improv, then yes it would be a railroad.

Sounds like a fun game, then. If you think I wouldn’t like a game where there is minimal dice rolling and combat isn’t the main focus, you haven’t understood me at all.

Maybe I'm not understanding you completely. From what I have gathered, you want there to be mechanical effects from the spending of gold. Those things tend to be items, permanent boosts, etc. that are useful where rolling happens(combat, skill challenges, etc.). The portions of my game where there is minimal dice rolling wouldn't engage much in the way of mechanics, but can and often does engage the things you spend gold on, but which do not have set mechanics attached.

This presupposes that the majority of players don’t find it to be a problem, which we don’t have enough data to be able to take as a given. Even if we start from that assumption, how big is that majority? Evidently not that big, as this critique is extremely common, and keeps popping back up in conversation about 5e. DMs regularly ask for advice on how to get their players invested in the treasure. Finally, even if we accept the premise that it’s not a general issue (which I don’t, but for the sake of argument). Should the minority who does find it to be a problem not be allowed to discuss solutions to it on these forums, with other DMs who have experienced the same issue? Because that’s where we’re at right now. Someone expressed an issue they were experiencing with the default rules, and a bunch of folks want to tell them it’s not a real issue and shaming them for wanting mechanics in their game.

Remember, I'm talking about 1e and 2e, which happened before 3e's over regulation changed how people view the game. During that period I dealt with probably a few hundred players if you count conventions. I'm probably more likely to win the lottery tonight, than I am to have encountered that many players, had none of them complain about gold spending, and be in the minority. And it's incredibly likely that I was in the super majority.

As for 5e and more recent years, yes the group of people who have that complaint has certainly risen, but I still think it's in the minority.
 

5ekyu

Hero
See, I would need more than this hypothetical to be able to answer that question. If he's not set up to handle a change of direction, I need to know why? If it's because they are in the underdark and they have no way of getting out, then it's not a railroad not to accommodate a desire to leave and set up a garden. If they are in a town and the DM hasn't set up up anything else nearby, I would not call that a railroad, since as far as I'm concerned, the DM can improv until the end of the night and set things up before the next game. If the DM just refuses to improv, then yes it would be a railroad.



Maybe I'm not understanding you completely. From what I have gathered, you want there to be mechanical effects from the spending of gold. Those things tend to be items, permanent boosts, etc. that are useful where rolling happens(combat, skill challenges, etc.). The portions of my game where there is minimal dice rolling wouldn't engage much in the way of mechanics, but can and often does engage the things you spend gold on, but which do not have set mechanics attached.



Remember, I'm talking about 1e and 2e, which happened before 3e's over regulation changed how people view the game. During that period I dealt with probably a few hundred players if you count conventions. I'm probably more likely to win the lottery tonight, than I am to have encountered that many players, had none of them complain about gold spending, and be in the minority. And it's incredibly likely that I was in the super majority.

As for 5e and more recent years, yes the group of people who have that complaint has certainly risen, but I still think it's in the minority.

I may have said this before but to your point of the change in perspectives as to "dND" from 3.0 onwards...

the only game i ever ran in where treasure found was treated as "gp to cash in and buy the magic we want" was 3.5. In that game, after we got out of the first "dungeon" i had played with them in, when it came time to divvy loot i was taken aback that there was no possibility of discussion of "who gets the sword" just spreadheeting it to GP then to bought items from an off-screen store.

What it gained in "efficiency of builds" it lost in a sense of reality or wonder. I knew then that we would never find a special sword with a heritage or a story. That idea was foreign to that game where tresure was commercial value to be turned into selective bonuses that best suit your build - nothing more.

it was so far removed from anything i had encountered in 1e or 2e it was jarring to me and a significant reason i left the game.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
See, I would need more than this hypothetical to be able to answer that question. If he's not set up to handle a change of direction, I need to know why? If it's because they are in the underdark and they have no way of getting out, then it's not a railroad not to accommodate a desire to leave and set up a garden. If they are in a town and the DM hasn't set up up anything else nearby, I would not call that a railroad, since as far as I'm concerned, the DM can improv until the end of the night and set things up before the next game. If the DM just refuses to improv, then yes it would be a railroad.
Sure. Assume the DM was unwilling to improvise, but the need to improvise just never arose because the things the players wanted to do happened to be the things the DM had already prepared for.

Maybe I'm not understanding you completely. From what I have gathered, you want there to be mechanical effects from the spending of gold. Those things tend to be items, permanent boosts, etc. that are useful where rolling happens(combat, skill challenges, etc.). The portions of my game where there is minimal dice rolling wouldn't engage much in the way of mechanics, but can and often does engage the things you spend gold on, but which do not have set mechanics attached.
I find this sort of stark separation between “the portion of the game where there is minimal dice rolling” and “the portion of the game where rolling happens” to be not to my taste. It is my preference that, in all portions of the game, dice rolling should be kept to the minimum necessary because it disrupts narrative flow. By the same token, in all portions of the game, dice rolls should be used when necessary to resolve actions with uncertain outcomes. It is also my preference that the things players have the option to spend money on have clear, obvious impact on the game, to better align the player’s desires with their characters’ desires. For example, when considering what lifestyle to maintain, it is obvious my character would prefer a Comfortable or better lifestyle. On the other hand, as a player, the benefits of a comfortable lifestyle are not obvious to me, particularly when compared to, say, the benefits of a set of full plate. With the latter I know exactly what I’m getting for my money - a lower percent chance of being hit by attacks. With a Comfortable or better lifestyle, the benefits are not spelled out to me. Maybe my DM will take it into account when I’m interacting with various NPCs, maybe they won’t. And if they don’t tell me to roll with advantage due to my lifestyle or something, I won’t know even if they do take it into account. That makes it a less appealing option to me as a player than the armor is, potentially less appealing than it should be to my character. Currently, there is very, very little that a player can buy that has clear, reliable benefits, so players are often left with nothing they feel like isn’t a waste of their gold.

Remember, I'm talking about 1e and 2e, which happened before 3e's over regulation changed how people view the game. During that period I dealt with probably a few hundred players if you count conventions. I'm probably more likely to win the lottery tonight, than I am to have encountered that many players, had none of them complain about gold spending, and be in the minority. And it's incredibly likely that I was in the super majority.
Did you quote the wrong section of my post here? Because the section you quoted was in response to your assertion that lack of things to spend gold on in 5e should not be treated as a general problem because you think the players who see it as a problem are in the minority and you can’t please everyone.

As for 5e and more recent years, yes the group of people who have that complaint has certainly risen, but I still think it's in the minority.
Right, but what I’m saying is, even if we proceed under the assumption that they’re in the minority, I still don’t think it isn’t something worth talking about. If you don’t see it as a problem, fine, but then why do you feel the need to detract from conversations between people who do see it as a problem about how to fix it by telling them you don’t think it’s a problem? They don’t really care if you think it’s a problem or not, they’re just looking for advice from other people who have confronted the problem about how to deal with it.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
A month's salary (or a month's living expenses) sounds like the perfect starting point. I must remember that the next time it comes up. Thank you.

You're welcome! Because my goal was a unified mechanic for all offerings of inducement including bribes, gifts, rewards, and tributes, and because my houserule is in origin an adaptation of rules from the 1st Ed. AD&D DMG, I started with the idea that many skilled hirelings and henchmen will not accept an offer of employment for a term of less than one month or will require at least one-month's payment for a shorter term. Extending that thinking from signing bonuses to bribes seemed natural.

Oh, cool!

:)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sure. Assume the DM was unwilling to improvise, but the need to improvise just never arose because the things the players wanted to do happened to be the things the DM had already prepared for.
It still wouldn't be a railroad unless a player tried to do something and was told no. The defining feature of a railroad is a player being unable to do something he wants to do for no other reason than the DM doesn't want it to happen.

I find this sort of stark separation between “the portion of the game where there is minimal dice rolling” and “the portion of the game where rolling happens” to be not to my taste. It is my preference that, in all portions of the game, dice rolling should be kept to the minimum necessary because it disrupts narrative flow. By the same token, in all portions of the game, dice rolls should be used when necessary to resolve actions with uncertain outcomes.

Whether it's to your taste or not, they exist in D&D. Combat being the major guilty party. Skill challenges being another. Those are set up to require a lot of die rolling to complete the task at hand. General roleplaying between say the DM and a king would not be one of those, even thought here may be the occasional roll for things that are uncertain.

It is also my preference that the things players have the option to spend money on have clear, obvious impact on the game, to better align the player’s desires with their characters’ desires. For example, when considering what lifestyle to maintain, it is obvious my character would prefer a Comfortable or better lifestyle. On the other hand, as a player, the benefits of a comfortable lifestyle are not obvious to me, particularly when compared to, say, the benefits of a set of full plate. With the latter I know exactly what I’m getting for my money - a lower percent chance of being hit by attacks. With a Comfortable or better lifestyle, the benefits are not spelled out to me. Maybe my DM will take it into account when I’m interacting with various NPCs, maybe they won’t. And if they don’t tell me to roll with advantage due to my lifestyle or something, I won’t know even if they do take it into account. That makes it a less appealing option to me as a player than the armor is, potentially less appealing than it should be to my character. Currently, there is very, very little that a player can buy that has clear, reliable benefits, so players are often left with nothing they feel like isn’t a waste of their gold.

Whereas my preference is that players choose things like lifestyles based on what their character's concept and desires, rather than just "What mechanical goodies can I get out of this."

Player: Well, I was going to pay for the aristocratic lifestyle for my PC who enjoys being a pampered noble and can't stand the squalor of those beneath him, but since I don't know what I will get out of it mechanically, I'm just going to pay for a squalid lifestyle.

That sort of thing doesn't cut it for me as a player or DM. I feel that choices should be made with roleplaying in mind first, and mechanics second.

Did you quote the wrong section of my post here? Because the section you quoted was in response to your assertion that lack of things to spend gold on in 5e should not be treated as a general problem because you think the players who see it as a problem are in the minority and you can’t please everyone.

You were also challenging how great of a minority or majority it was, so I brought up that in 1e and 2e it was a very small minority, 3e and 4e over regulated it to the point where this wasn't really a problem, and 5e went back to 1e and now you are hearing about it more. That makes the over regulation of 3e and 4e the culprit. They spoiled people by spelling out the mechanics in detail, and when we go back to 5e where players have to think about how they want to spend gold again, people are complaining.

As for whether it should be treated as a general problem, it's not a general problem unless it generally occurs to those who play the game. Since it still only occurs to a minority, and possibly still a small minority, it's not a general problem.

WotC has limited space for new mechanics, and I would rather see that space taken up by new classes, paths, feats, etc. that will be useful to a greater number of people than gold spending mechanics would.

Right, but what I’m saying is, even if we proceed under the assumption that they’re in the minority, I still don’t think it isn’t something worth talking about. If you don’t see it as a problem, fine, but then why do you feel the need to detract from conversations between people who do see it as a problem about how to fix it by telling them you don’t think it’s a problem? They don’t really care if you think it’s a problem or not, they’re just looking for advice from other people who have confronted the problem about how to deal with it.

Sure. We can talk about it. Offer up solutions, and so on, but you've made it clear that it's not talking about it that you want to do. You've said repeatedly that the only solution you are really interested in is official mechanics in a WotC release, rejecting the solutions offered to you by people in this thread. That sort of limitation on your part is not conducive to a conversation about a problem and how to fix it, so I'm not detracting from anything with my statements.
 

5ekyu

Hero
It still wouldn't be a railroad unless a player tried to do something and was told no. The defining feature of a railroad is a player being unable to do something he wants to do for no other reason than the DM doesn't want it to happen.



Whether it's to your taste or not, they exist in D&D. Combat being the major guilty party. Skill challenges being another. Those are set up to require a lot of die rolling to complete the task at hand. General roleplaying between say the DM and a king would not be one of those, even thought here may be the occasional roll for things that are uncertain.



Whereas my preference is that players choose things like lifestyles based on what their character's concept and desires, rather than just "What mechanical goodies can I get out of this."

Player: Well, I was going to pay for the aristocratic lifestyle for my PC who enjoys being a pampered noble and can't stand the squalor of those beneath him, but since I don't know what I will get out of it mechanically, I'm just going to pay for a squalid lifestyle.

That sort of thing doesn't cut it for me as a player or DM. I feel that choices should be made with roleplaying in mind first, and mechanics second.



You were also challenging how great of a minority or majority it was, so I brought up that in 1e and 2e it was a very small minority, 3e and 4e over regulated it to the point where this wasn't really a problem, and 5e went back to 1e and now you are hearing about it more. That makes the over regulation of 3e and 4e the culprit. They spoiled people by spelling out the mechanics in detail, and when we go back to 5e where players have to think about how they want to spend gold again, people are complaining.

As for whether it should be treated as a general problem, it's not a general problem unless it generally occurs to those who play the game. Since it still only occurs to a minority, and possibly still a small minority, it's not a general problem.

WotC has limited space for new mechanics, and I would rather see that space taken up by new classes, paths, feats, etc. that will be useful to a greater number of people than gold spending mechanics would.



Sure. We can talk about it. Offer up solutions, and so on, but you've made it clear that it's not talking about it that you want to do. You've said repeatedly that the only solution you are really interested in is official mechanics in a WotC release, rejecting the solutions offered to you by people in this thread. That sort of limitation on your part is not conducive to a conversation about a problem and how to fix it, so I'm not detracting from anything with my statements.
"That sort of thing doesn't cut it for me as a player or DM. I feel that choices should be made with roleplaying in mind first, and mechanics second. "

I prefer for both to serve as valid decision making points and to not clash.

Thats why i like the relative lack of "gold for plusses" after tier-1.

ASIDE I rememer AD&D having DMG charts on jewels, art, etc as tressure from way back. Clearly, no inherent bonuses to painting vs gp but that level of definition added some sense of setting vs sense of commerce. I like that feel.

But to me by having not given a GFP pass thru the whole of progression, they move gold just not the interactive roleplay engaging currency.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
"That sort of thing doesn't cut it for me as a player or DM. I feel that choices should be made with roleplaying in mind first, and mechanics second. "

I prefer for both to serve as valid decision making points and to not clash.

Yeah. That's why I said roleplaying first, and mechanics second, which indicates that both are valid for decision making, but one has priority over the other. Not clashing is also a big issue for me, which is why I used the example that I did.

ASIDE I rememer AD&D having DMG charts on jewels, art, etc as tressure from way back. Clearly, no inherent bonuses to painting vs gp but that level of definition added some sense of setting vs sense of commerce. I like that feel.

Going back to what [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] has been saying. I still use those charts. And the dungeon dressing charts. I use Central Casting Dungeons sometimes when I build dungeons. There are lots of resources out there from days gone by that are still very helpful to DMs.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Yeah. That's why I said roleplaying first, and mechanics second, which indicates that both are valid for decision making, but one has priority over the other. Not clashing is also a big issue for me, which is why I used the example that I did.



Going back to what [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] has been saying. I still use those charts. And the dungeon dressing charts. I use Central Casting Dungeons sometimes when I build dungeons. There are lots of resources out there from days gone by that are still very helpful to DMs.

I remember back in the day having a particular BG with a penchant for art (and artists as it turns out) and so a lot of the "loot to be had" was art and by not providing "ye olde art shoppe" in every village and small town it spawned a bit of seek out NPCs" as well as planning and work to get that "gp" out and converted. this led to several times they used the art as a propr for plans and schemes, esp with local "poobaahs."
 


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