What's wrong with Epic Tier and how do we fix it?

[Celebrim]

Considering your self admitted lack of knowledge about 4e, can you see how comments like these seem biased and based on nothing more than a dislike of 4e?

I spent most of the post complaining about problems with 1e, and you think I was unfair to 4e?

 

[aurance]

I spent most of the post complaining about problems with 1e, and you think I was unfair to 4e?

"Here were some big problems with monsters in 1e. 4e seems to have the same issues, even though I don't know much about it" is what I got from your post, so yes, I can see how it could be seen as unfair to 4e.

In any case, it's a bit more of an involved issue than making PCs and monsters follow all the same rules.

 

[Celebrim]

"Here were some big problems with monsters in 1e. 4e seems to have the same issues, even though I don't know much about it" is what I got from your post, so yes, I can see how it could be seen as unfair to 4e.

Here were some big problems with monsters in 1e that resulted from some subtle problems in the rules that didn't really manifest themselves until higher levels. For example, in 1e monsters THAC0 advanced fast at low levels, and then slowed down at high levels - player effective THAC0 on the other hand advanced faster and faster (even progression + even progression of magical enhancements).

According to the original poster, 4e has subtle problems manifesting themselves at higher levels, so maybe you should look at things which don't differ that much between PC's and monsters at low levels, and things which do differ quite a bit between PC's and monsters at high levels.

As for criticals not being the problem, maybe that's so, but the OP claimed there were two problems (not one, as some others have claimed).

First, the OP claimed that at Epic levels, combats tended to go long.

Secondly, and I think equally importantly, the OP claimed that at Epic levels, combats tended to become predictable. According to the OP, the monsters stopped feeling like a threat.

Someone complained that boosting monster crits wouldn't help the problem but would make combats less predictable. I find that a strange complaint, given that the OP complained about the fact that the PC's never felt threatened and that the combat followed a very predictable arc.

Someone else has claimed epic solos differ from lower level solos by having x5 rather than x4 hit points. That seems relevant as well.

 

[FourthBear]

I will note with mild amusement that the Monster Builder tool on the WotC website delivers monsters with the correct damage output from the DMG. Perhaps we need to petition WotC to have their monster designers use their own tool.

 

[Stalker0]

One thing about epic levels is that there are far more elite and solo monsters, and those monsters types (especially solos) are the biggest complaint for grind combats. The issue could be those monster types more than epic level itself.

I think if you want less predictable combat, bigger crits are one way to go. Afterall, epic characters already have "death is not the end" abilities if you happen to take a big crit.

But if its an issue of grind, that requires either more damage and/or less hitpoints thrown around.

 

[Jack99]

I spent most of the post complaining about problems with 1e, and you think I was unfair to 4e?

Not unfair. Just wrong.

Assuming for a second that there is an issue at epic levels; Crits in 4e aren't exactly only eye-candy at higher level, but they are still not what is causing the disparity the OP is experiencing.

The x5 hit point problem would not be an epic-only issue, since it changes at the paragon tier. Also, solo monsters should account for a fairly small percentage of a group's fights, so if the problem is always there, chances are it's unrelated to the solo hitpoint situation.

Regarding math issues, the most recognised one has to do with NAD's, and that is a problem favoring the monsters, so surely that can not be causing issues with the length of combat.

@OP
My suggestion is always the same. If you feel your combats are too long and the monsters hits are too weak, remove 20-25% of their hit points while adding 20-25% to the damage of all their attacks. Tweak from there until you have it as you want. It's quick and easy to do. You will get swingier combats, but as long as you keep it below 30%, I don't think it is a swinginess that will affect the game much. IMO, YMMV and all that jazz.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

My conclusion is that the monster math does not level correctly in order to maintain that nice level of drama that 4e combat provides at all of the other levels I've played it at.

You're right, monster math doesn't level correctly. The golden standard for monster stats is N + Level, but PC stats just can't keep up with that pace, with the exception of AC. Other PC defenses and attacks only scale at 4/5 PC level, so by 30th level the monsters are ahead by 5 points in all defenses and all attacks vs. NADs (non-armor defenses). There are a couple ways to deal with this:

1. You can reduce monster defenses and attacks vs. NADs by 1 at 6th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
2. You can give PCs an 'awesome bonus' to attacks and NADs at 6th level and each 5 levels thereafter, which is what I do in my paragon pbp game and it's worked great for speeding up combats.

Hope that helps,
TS

 

[Runestar]

Also, isn't epic where stuff like unsavable lockdowns start occuring, since orb wizards can effectively start imposing -10 on saves? This means that for every 5 normal foes you throw at such a party, you can expect at least 1 to be sitting it out due to some debuff such as stun.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Okay.
Crits are not that important.
Considering your self admitted lack of knowledge about 4e, can you see how comments like these seem biased and based on nothing more than a dislike of 4e?
Since you obviously don't know alot about 4e (by own admission), why is that?

Cut the antagonistic posting or you will be banned. The mods patience with people being antagonistic to others is wearing thin

 

[Vayden]

Hey all!

Very interesting thread. I agree with many of the suggestions: x4 hit points for solo monsters, add monster crit damage, ensure monster damage meets minimum requirements.

On that last point, as others have noted, virtually every epic monster in 4E falls short of the mark. A few will be on the mark with one attack, but well down again with others. Unfortunately, this also seems to hold true not just in the Monster Manual but also in the likes of the Draconomicon, Manual of the Planes and Open Grave. Basically the damage output of almost every epic monster is sub-par.

Definitely true. They just don't do enough damage, hit for hit. Rodney, I see you posting up there. Any comments on why the math stopped working at epic tier (and why soloes are so horrible at every tier)?