What's wrong with high-level/epic play?

JDJblatherings

First Post
The way high level combat can turn into a battle of trump cards.

You know, first the evil wizard casts Force Cage, locking everyone in an impregnable prison of force. They're totally defeated!

If the whole party is standing in a 10' or 20' cube waiting to be victims of the spell.

A lot of the "trump cards" are overblown by many folks. The evil wizard has to have the ruby dust material component, initiative and get within 60 feet or so of the party (they can be further later on). Force cage is a 7th level spell that can be defeated by a 5th level spell, a 6th level spell and provides the targets of the sell with cover they can strike out from with spells and breath weapons (if using the barred cage).
 

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Thanael

Explorer
It was, I think, EN Publishing's Four-Color to Fantasy that introduced the concept of "hyper-rolls."

A hyper-roll is where, on a d20 roll, for every full +20 of bonuses you have, you remove +20 from the total bonus and add in another d20 to be rolled. For example, a fighter with a +42 (total) bonus to his attack roll would instead just have a +2 bonus and roll 3d20. This helps to keep results relatively lower, and makes the dice stay relevant at higher levels. It might be a good idea to introduce to epic-level play.

An interesting system, but it scales strangely. A bonus of +19 might be more attractive that getting to +21 under this system.
 

phloog

First Post
Mechanically speaking pretty much everything people have said here.

For me, in what appears to be a nonsensical phrase, epic play is boring.

I would suggest that to accurately represent current rules for epic play, but simultaneously streamline the combat and make it less painful, you do the following:

1) Roll for Initiative
2) In initiative order, each combatant rolls a d20. If the d20 comes up with a 1, that character dies from [some big effect the other team has]
If it comes up with a 20, their team gets a point.
3) When one side runs out of characters, the other side wins.
4) Each player drinks a number of beers equal to their team's point value at the end of combat

(more advanced players may choose to drink their beers as each point is scored...in this context 'advanced' could be in terms of understanding of the rules, or in terms of their body weight or level of liver damage)
 

timbannock

Hero
Supporter
An interesting system, but it scales strangely. A bonus of +19 might be more attractive that getting to +21 under this system.

I don't know where the cut-off would be, but we all own several different types of polyhedral dice, so maybe every time you have a bonus that equals a die type (+6 = d6, +8 = d8), you add that die in and cut the bonus?

Very granular, which is a little silly.

And very bad if you're the poor guy who owns all those weird-sided designer dice (d5, d32, etc.)! So maybe only for the "standard" dice (4, 6, 8, 10, 12 and 20). So someone with a +7 would roll d20 + d6 +1. Person with 19 would roll d20 + d12 + d6 +1.

Whatever, it sounds weird.
 

timbannock

Hero
Supporter
Mechanically speaking pretty much everything people have said here.

For me, in what appears to be a nonsensical phrase, epic play is boring.

I would suggest that to accurately represent current rules for epic play, but simultaneously streamline the combat and make it less painful, you do the following:

1) Roll for Initiative
2) In initiative order, each combatant rolls a d20. If the d20 comes up with a 1, that character dies from [some big effect the other team has]
If it comes up with a 20, their team gets a point.
3) When one side runs out of characters, the other side wins.
4) Each player drinks a number of beers equal to their team's point value at the end of combat

(more advanced players may choose to drink their beers as each point is scored...in this context 'advanced' could be in terms of understanding of the rules, or in terms of their body weight or level of liver damage)

I've never seen D&D become such a lovely beer & pretzels game before!


....that's not really true, but great post!
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
An interesting system, but it scales strangely. A bonus of +19 might be more attractive that getting to +21 under this system.

Yeah, I thought of that too. But honestly, if that's the worst that happens, it seems like a good thing. After all, player's not wanting their bonuses to escalate too high becomes more manageable for the DM. ;)
 

Kerrick

First Post
Thanks for all the replies so far.

For the love of all things holy, fix save bonus vs. spell DCs so that having a poor fort isn't instant death, and a poor will isn't taking you out of every other fight.

The difference between a good save and a poor save (by progression) is such that by high level, good-save characters cannot fail, poor cannot succeed.
Done that. I boosted the low save to 4/10 instead of 1/3, so the difference at L20 is only 4 instead of 6. Once the EAS kicks in, the saves stay fairly close together.

The worst problem in 3e epic play is 'cascading bonuses' to keep track of.
Yeah... I'm working on that too - I (with a suggestion from someone else) came up with an idea for bonuses - intrinsic (stuff that always applies, like armor, shield, and size), internal (stuff that applies from boosted abilities, like competence and enhancement), and external (anything that's applied from an outside source, like deflection or luck. How it works is that all intrinsic bonuses stack (assuming they're different types), and you get ONE internal and ONE external - the best/worst of each.

I also cut down the number of bonuses a bit, and I changed the animal buffs to end-of-chain boosts - instead of buffing the stat itself, they act checks and rolls related to that stat. Bull's strength, e.g., grants a +2 bonus to anything modified by Strength, but not the actual Strength score itself.

The sheer amount of abilities and information necessary to run a fight with high level monsters: All pertinent SLA information, spell durations, Picking spells (and having all the pertinent info on hand), auras, feats, etc.
That's a tough one. I agree that some monsters have WAY too many SLAs and spells and such (angels!), but I'm not sure how to cut them down without underpowering them.

The amount of abilities that high level players have, and how long it takes them to decipher what they can do, what they are going to do, and how to resolve that.
Part of that is the players, too - the more familiar they are with their characters, the easier things would go.

It was, I think, EN Publishing's Four-Color to Fantasy that introduced the concept of "hyper-rolls."
I've seen that; I saw it posted here as "The Rule of 20" a few years back. I thought about using it awhile ago, then dropped the idea for some reason. I'll have to look at it again.

I also came up with an idea called "The Rule of 3". Basically, the idea is to fix high skill scores by dividing them by 3 - you keep the existing score, but just divide it by 3, so the DM can scale the DCs down to reasonable levels; making something that would challenge both a cleric with a +15 Spot and a rogue with +45 Spot is impossible, but +5 and +15 is easily doable. Unfortunately, it met with a lot of negative criticism (mostly "Why bother when I can just scale the DCs to fit the skill scores?") so I decided to leave it as an optional rule.

Yeah, the core math of the system breaks down at high levels.

1. Saves become binary, as others have pointed out.
I'm got a solution for save-or-dies already (well, kind of - instead of "BAM, you're dead!" it's "BAM, you're dying and could die!" You're still out of the battle, but you're not completely screwed.

2. Damage becomes overwhelming, and a round of full attacks kills anything. (Hence, combats shrink to a handful of rounds).
Combats don't last very long to start with, IME. The number of hit points monsters have generally scales upward to keep pace with damage output.

3. Hits become pretty much automatic, as AC tops out way before to-hit. You can try to optimize something with high enough AC to not get hit, but to do that you generally have to sacrifice being able to do anything useful.
I've got a couple solutions to that one. One is to boost armor bonuses through mastercrafting; another is to give monsters EAB/EAS (which they really should have had to start with). So, PCs' ACs can get higher, and monsters won't have overwhelming ABs.

The way high level combat can turn into a battle of trump cards.
Immunities. Yeah. I've always felt immunities should be special, not something that everyone and their dog Ralph has, so I've severely limited them. This should make more spells viable for a longer period of time, instead of forcing everyone to rely on stuff that either has no save, or specifically works against the target's low save.

I would suggest that to accurately represent current rules for epic play, but simultaneously streamline the combat and make it less painful, you do the following:

1) Roll for Initiative
2) In initiative order, each combatant rolls a d20. If the d20 comes up with a 1, that character dies from [some big effect the other team has]
If it comes up with a 20, their team gets a point.
3) When one side runs out of characters, the other side wins.
4) Each player drinks a number of beers equal to their team's point value at the end of combat

(more advanced players may choose to drink their beers as each point is scored...in this context 'advanced' could be in terms of understanding of the rules, or in terms of their body weight or level of liver damage)
That's classic. :lol:
 
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mmu1

First Post
An interesting system, but it scales strangely. A bonus of +19 might be more attractive that getting to +21 under this system.

There's no way this could work. (without re-designing every facet of the system)

Using the +42 bonus as an example:

Under the current system your average result on a roll would be 52.5

Under the proposed system, the average result would be 3d20+2, or 33.5

All that would ensure is that (for example) the fighter who can hit everything with a +42 to hit, would now be able to hit nothing, because his average roll result dropped 19 points.

On top of that, you have the issue of iterative attacks - would his next attack be 3d20-3, or 2d20+17? Which dovetails neatly into those bizzarre artifacts of this system that people already brought up: 3d20+1 gives you an average of 32.5, but 2d20+19, an average of 40. Huh? How could that possibly work?

This makes the issues Shadowrun always had with TN 6 / TN 7 spot simple in comparison...
 
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Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
For us, it was the sheer scope of options combined with unmanageable math. The paladin charges with her lance... and then she spends five minutes calculating the damage multipliers and how they're affected by smiting, magic items, buffs, and feats. It got to be unwieldy.
 

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