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What's wrong with the single-classed Ranger?

Kai Lord

Hero
Gaiden said:
I also would like to emphasize the point made about the comparison between rangers and the other classes that are commonly compared to it - while the rogue is better at stealth,

Please explain how the Rogue is better than the Ranger at Stealth. The Rogue can put no more skill ranks into Hide and Move Silently than the Ranger, and the Ranger can cast Camouflage (+10 to Hide, regardless of surroundings) and Forestfold +20 to Hide and Move Silently when outdoors.

The claim that Rogues are stealthier than Rangers is an absolute misnomer. They're not.
 

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Shard O'Glase

First Post
Kai Lord said:


Please explain how the Rogue is better than the Ranger at Stealth. The Rogue can put no more skill ranks into Hide and Move Silently than the Ranger, and the Ranger can cast Camouflage (+10 to Hide, regardless of surroundings) and Forestfold +20 to Hide and Move Silently when outdoors.

The claim that Rogues are stealthier than Rangers is an absolute misnomer. They're not.

They are better because they have more skill points, and are therefore more capable of putting max ranks into 2 different skills. And while i'm sure those spells are great, a rogue can use magic device on a wand of those, and or just buy a cloak of hide+30 or whatever other wierd thing a DM might let into the game.
 

Kibo

Banned
Banned
Kai Lord said:
Please explain how the Rogue is better than the Ranger at Stealth. The Rogue can put no more skill ranks into Hide and Move Silently than the Ranger, and the Ranger can cast Camouflage (+10 to Hide, regardless of surroundings) and Forestfold +20 to Hide and Move Silently when outdoors.

That's not even including that move silently and hide should benefit from synergy bonuses with wilderness lore when in natural surroundings.
 

Kai Lord

Hero
Shard O'Glase said:


They are better because they have more skill points, and are therefore more capable of putting max ranks into 2 different skills.

That still doesn't make the Rogue better. Any Ranger can max out those skills just as easily. He won't have as much left over for other skills, but the issue is on who's stealthier.

Shard O'Glase said:
And while i'm sure those spells are great, a rogue can use magic device on a wand of those, and or just buy a cloak of hide+30 or whatever other wierd thing a DM might let into the game.

You can't use magic items to support that claim, because Rangers can just use them too. You don't need Use Magic Device to put on a Ring of Invisibility.
 

Stalker0

Legend
First of all, quit the hunter's mercy argument. Its one spell!!! Besides, not everyone plays with all the spells from all the books, I don't, so we need to consider everything else.

One of the problem I have with ranger spells (actually bard spells as well) as there just copy and pasters from the other spell casters. At least teh paladin got a truly unique spell every spell level or close to it.


I definately think the ranger needs more customization, but bonus feats aren't the way to do it. That makes him a fighter wanaabe. I would go teh special abilities route. Here's a model I kinda whipped up.

Hit Dice: d8

Favored Enemies/Home Field Advantage: At 1st level, the ranger can choose to study a specific group of enemies, and becomes more deadly against them. Against this type of enemy, the ranger recieves a +2 bonus to spot, listen, sense motive, wilderness lore, attack and damage rolls. At 5th level, and every 5 levels after, the ranger can choose an additional favored enemy, and all previous favored enemies bonuses increase by 1.

Home Field Advantage Whenever choosing a favored enemy, the ranger can instead choose a terrain type to which he has become akined. The terrain types are listen in the dmg. When travelling through the terrain, the ranger gains a +1 bonus to spot, listen, search, wilderness lore. In addition he suffers only half the normal movement penalties for that terrain rounded up (if your movement is 1/2, its now 3/4. 3/4 becomes no penalty). Against any creature native to that terrain, the ranger recieves +1 bonus to sense motive and bluff, and to attack and damage rolls. Note: Certain creatures, like some humanoids or undead, have no native terrain type and you cannot use your bonus agaisnt them. At every 5 levels, you can chose a new terrain type or favored enemy, and all previous bonuses again increase by 1.

****My idea above was first that a specific group of enemies is much more narrow than a whole terrain, so I gave them a +2 bonus. Also I added the bonus to attack rolls, because frankly I've always felt rangers should get one, and I would allows this attack roll against even undead, I mean sure you can't hurt them worse but you can study how to get around their defenses. Finally I think the movement bonus might give a little more incentive for rangers to choose jungles and swampes over forests and plains, because I have a feeling that's where the minmaxers would put it.

Track: Rangers get track as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Special Abilities: At 2nd level and every 4 levels afterward, the ranger may pick one ability from a list of special abilities. Some abilities are only obtainable at certain levels, but you can always pick an ability that has a lower level prereq.

2nd level:
Blade Adept: The ranger has spent great time studying the sword and how to use a pair of them with great accuracy and power. You gain two-weapon fighting and ambidexterity as bonus feats.

Melee Bow Adept: You have learned how to fire a bow effectively at foes admist the chaos of combat. You gain point blank shot and precise shot as bonus feats.

Long Bow Adept: You have trained yourself to fire the maximum distances your bow will allow as well as the eyes to see such distances. You gain a +2 bonus to spot as well as far shot as a bonus feat.

Mounted Adept: You have created a bond between you and the horse that few can match. You get mounted combat and either ride-by attack, mounted archery, or trample as bonus feats.

Exotic Adept: You have spent your time learning the mysteries of the uncommon weapon. You gain exotic weapon proficiency with 3 weapons as bonus feats.

**My big question is whether I should maintain the armor restriction for these abilities. But I thought putting them at 2nd level would lower some of the front-ended ness of the class.

6th level:

Friend to the Wild: Your kinship with the animals of the wild allows you to have more powerful allies. You now have the caster level of a druid when determing animal companions.

Stealth: You gain a +4 bonus to hide and move silently checks. Also, your penalty for moving fast while hiding and moving silently is reduced by half. You may also teach the stealth ability to your animal companions as tricks.
****I don't know if the cutting the move fast penalty is hitting the rogue's territory too much or not, but I wanted it to measure up to the friend of the wild ability, although maybe that ability should be moved up to level 10 or so.

Perception: You gain a +4 bonus to spot, search and listen. Also your sight range, whether normal, lowlight, or darkvision, is improved by 10 ft.

Speed: You gain a +10 bonus to base movement and can invoke the freedom of movement ability at will.

10th level:
Blade Master: Prereq: Blade Adept. Your penalities to weilding two weapons is reduced by -2, and you no longer suffer a penalty to strength in your off hand.

Melee Bow Master: Prereqs: Melee Bow Adept. All abilities that require you to use your bow at 30 ft, may now be used at 60ft. In addition, you threaten with your bow for the purposes of flanking, and AOO at 10 ft.

Long Bow Master: Prereq: Long Bow Adept. Your distance increment increases to x2, and your bow no longer has a maximum range.

Mounted Master: Prereq: Mounted Adept. You gain the other abilites of a mounted adept that you did not already obtain. In addition, you gain the spirited charge feat and the heal mount spell 2/day.

Exotic Master: Prereq: Exotic Adept. You can now use any weapon as if you had proficiency, and have the weapon focus feat when doing so.

14th level:

One with the wild: Prereqs: Friend to the Wild. You gain the awaken spell at will, but only for animals. You also gain the animal growth spell 3 times/day.

Improved Favored Enemy: You may add +1 to all the bonuses you get against your favored enemies and on your favored terrains. This bonus also applies when obtaining new favored enemies or new terrains.

Stalker: Prereqs: Stealth. The can cast invisibility as a standard action at will.

Awareness: Prereqs: Perception. You gain the blindsight ability as stated in the monster’s manual. The 10 ft improvement gained by the perception ability stacks for the purpose of your blindsight range.

Flurry: Prereqs: Speed. You can act as if hasted for a number of rounds per day equal to half your ranger level. Unlike normal haste, this is an extraordinary ability.

18th level:
Immunity: You are immune to natural poisons, disease, or one type of energy of your choice.



***couldn’t think of any more 18th level abilities at the moment. Basically, after all that, the kind and amount of spells the ranger gets (besides animal friendship of course) should be based on balance. Maybe he’ll need less spels or maybe none at all. Maybe I made him too powerful already. I think some of the abilities are probably too strong, so I’m going to do some tweeking. I’m not sure if I like the chains I’ve created, with the prereqs at all, but I definitely think it makes going higher levels of ranger worth it. I want your guys opinion. Is he a good alternative, too weak, too strong. Any other suggestions for special abilities, or should I change some of the current ones?
 

The Souljourner

First Post
I can't see why a Ranger would have trouble putting ranks into hide and move silently. Even with very moderate intelligence (12), he can max out 5 skill points. That's wilderness lore, spot, hide, move silently, and your choice of listen or search (at least that would be my recommendation on skill point expenditure).

No, rangers can't max out every useful skill, but neither can rogues. 8 skill points per level is all well and good, but when you need to spend them on stuff like disable device, search, pick locks, bluff, and use magic device, all above and beyond what the ranger already needs to take, you're not likely to have a bunch left over either. So unless the player consciously chooses to make his character less stealthy, he's probably going to have the same Hide check as an equivalent rogue.

I think we've really come down to the crux of the ranger's power. He's as sneaky and aware as the rogue, with fighting capability that's second only to a fighter. The spells are just gravy (maybe cheap store-bought gravy made from a powder, but still gravy).

Yes, this is a reversal of my previous position. The folks on the other side have convinced me. Now if only rangers got the extra movement of barbarians... ooh boy!
 
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Shard O'Glase

First Post
Kai Lord said:


That still doesn't make the Rogue better. Any Ranger can max out those skills just as easily. He won't have as much left over for other skills, but the issue is on who's stealthier.

If you want to ignore that it is more costly for the ranger go right ahead. You can go on ahead with your I live in a vacumm arguments all you want.


You can't use magic items to support that claim, because Rangers can just use them too. You don't need Use Magic Device to put on a Ring of Invisibility.

I can use magic items to support my claim a lot more validly than you can by using some poorly balanced splat book. And using magic items is an incedibly valid thing to do when you start adding in the levels needed to cast any spells for a ranger, and consider that use magic device is an exclusive skill for bards and rogues. It would be like me taking out all the ranger spells, and then making claims about the rangers ability to succeed as a class.
 

Kai Lord

Hero
Shard O'Glase said:
If you want to ignore that it is more costly for the ranger go right ahead. You can go on ahead with your I live in a vacumm arguments all you want.

Ah, I can see that you're backpedalling now. A Ranger can max out his Hide and Move Silently skills and still have much more skill points than a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Paladin. BAB of a Fighter, Stealth skills of a Rogue, plus spells and skill points to spare.

Shard O'Glase said:
I can use magic items to support my claim a lot more validly than you can by using some poorly balanced splat book.

Um, no you can't. Not when you're advocating the Rogue apply his Use Magic Device skill to a wand possessing a spell FROM some "poorly balanced splat book."

Shard O'Glase said:
And using magic items is an incedibly valid thing to do when you start adding in the levels needed to cast any spells for a ranger, and consider that use magic device is an exclusive skill for bards and rogues. It would be like me taking out all the ranger spells, and then making claims about the rangers ability to succeed as a class.

I never said it wasn't "valid" for a Rogue to use magic items. I just said that it doesn't support your claim that Rogues are stealthier because the Ranger can just as easily use magic items to enhance his stealth as well.

Which is easier, preparing a few Stealth spells in the morning, or hunting down a Wand of Forestfold?
 

Gaiden

Explorer
Please explain how the Rogue is better than the Ranger at Stealth.

Perhaps I was not clear with what I meant. All else being equal, the rogue is better than the ranger at stealth. This means all aspect of stealth - not just moving and hiding. This means Moving Silently, Hiding, Reconnaissance (spotting, listening and reading lips while hidden), Using any magic to aid in stealth - UMD, (not just ranger spells). and most importantly, attacking with stealth. A rogue will always be better than a ranger at stealth - considering SA, his greater skill points, needing mainly Dex, Int and Chr as opposed to Str, Dex, Con (to a lesser degree), and Wis, and his magic versatility.

However, a ranger does come darn close - you are right about the equal hide and MS ranks (of course this has a higher cost to a ranger than a rogue). And in fact, that closeness serves to proove my point - Rangers rock. You have made the case that they are equal to rogues and I am saying they are almost as good - either way, we agree that they are darn GOOD at stealth - and combining that with fighters BAB and HD is awesome.

And as Souljourner said - the spells are just gravy.
 

Psyduck

First Post
Well said, Gaiden. While I love the Ranger class, the rogue does beat the Ranger in stealth, not just hiding and moving, but at stealth. If you just compare hiding and moving silently, the best classes are monk, bard, ranger, and rogue. Can you say that all these classes are equally as stealthy as a rogue? To some extent they are, but open locks, pick pocket, tumble (not really stealth, but hey!), disguise, and at level 10 there's always skill mastery.

I'm not sure why I am trying to talk about rogues when the topic is about rangers, but there's my 2 cents anyway :)

As I stated before, rangers are a warrior-type bard (jack-of-all-trades)
 

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