What's your experience with WP/VP?

[ledded]

We've used VP/WP in Modern and really have not had that many issues converting things. Sometimes something was overlooked, but it's usually pretty easy for the GM to do an easy conversion then-and-there.

Add one die to guns. Now guns are actually dangerous; we always felt they had a bit of a raw deal, and with an extra die they are truly scary. Of course, the average damage only goes up a little, and if you truly want consistently good damage you are still better off with a melee weapon, some Strength, and talents/feats to improve damage like Power Attack, etc.

VP are like HP. Run out of VP? Well, now you're not dodging anymore, missing the little stuff. WP are your Con score. You take WP, you are injured. Save 5 + total WP damage dealt that turn, or you get knocked out. Fatigued even if you made that save. Go to 0 WP, you're down. -10? Dead.

Heroes recover VP faster, so there isnt a need for an artificial healing mechanic or tons of downtime after every encounter, while still having the opportunity for it to happen. When one of our modern guys takes WP, it's usually time to back out and get to the hospital. But with VP, you can actually throw a bit more challenge at them in shorter intervals because they don't have to have 8 hours to many days of rest every time someone gets a little hurt (dungeons and narcaleptics, anyone? ) unless they take WP and truly get injured.

Subdual is not an issue anymore. At all. Non-lethal does VP damage, but no WP. If the person taking non-lethal runs out of VP, then they still have to make the save *as if they took it*, but dont actually get WP damage. If you are brawling, you always have the option at that point of going lethal for less damage to "finish someone off" or you can knock them out. This way, low-level mooks can get the hi-ya knockout effect, while high-level ones are harder to do this to, but not immune.

There are certainly issues with high-damage criticals and things like that, but we've managed to rule things so that we maintain a nice, gritty feel while not making it impossible to survive. But we also have limited access to fx/magic, so magic that heals is rare and not very powerful, and people using magic touch attacks that deal damage are also rare/non-existent (though touch attacks in d20 Modern, with class bonuses, are not as scary or insanely easy as they are in D&D).

BTW, we do have some limited protective magics that provide DR, and armor provides a small amount of DR vs. Wound Point damage also, so you can get a little protection on top of those WP, and you can always take toughness for 3 more WP, if you feel like you need it.

Sure, it takes some house ruling, and I'm not saying it's always better than MDT... we just didnt like the static MDT save and the feel of the whole thing. At higher levels, MDT IMO just falls flat with everyone easily making their save most of the time. If you lower it too much then you have the problem of too many PC's failing and then having to sit out long lengths of time while they heal those HP's back. We also prefer a more gritty feel to our games than most folks, so when the PC's do something suitibly heroic/cinematic it feels all the more great for having actually survived it

Applying a sliding scale to MDT like Heap posted above would be the only way I would use HP and MDT, that way you can at least throw something less than a Nuclear Toxyderm at mid-to-high level PC's and have them actually take cover and fear for their lives, and applying that save on any crit helps a lot too. Probably easier than converting much to VP/WP while working somewhat similar, but we really didnt have that big of deal with converting at all.

Also, VP/WP feels a lot more cinematic in the GM/PC's description of events, because you know the line between a minor injury or fatigue and actually being injured.

We like it a lot, but YMMV.

 

[humble minion]

I've been running Star Wars for some time, and it works pretty well for me. WP crits mean that you can't simply ignore low-level bad guys completely, but you can still have expendable fodder using NPC classes that don't grant VP. You have to be careful, though, or with a couple of unlucky rolls you can wipe out a party in a routine random encounter. Rolling behind the GM screen (and fudging if necessary) is your friend. Still, the increased randomness means I definitely wouldn't recommend VP/WP if your PC party is smaller than about 4. Things can get very hairy very fast if a PC or two goes down early in a combat. Hell, I damn near wiped out my five-member 10th level party last session, with eight mooks using standard blaster rifles, in a combat that was only meant to slow them down.

 

[kenobi65]

Having played Star Wars d20 since it came out, a few other observations:

- VPs in Star Wars have a second use: it's what Force-users use to "power" their abilities. Move Object, Force Grip, Affect Mind, etc. all cost the user VPs to use. So, Force-users have to balance using up their VPs in this way vs. wanting to have some "in the bank" for combat.

- OTOH, the Heal Self and Heal Another Force skills let you get back VPs (and WPs) more quickly than you would be able to in a d20 Modern game that lacks any sort of supernatural healing.

- While VPs come back (relatively) quickly with rest, WPs regenerate very slowly on their own (and remember that a character is Fatigued until he recovers all his WPs).

- The VP / WP system means that crits done by high-damage weapons are SCARY, no matter what level you are. A lightsaber wielded by a higher-level Jedi-type can do 4d8, 5d8, or more, with a crit range of 19-20. At that point, a crit will drop almost anyone, with a high chance of killing 'em outright.

 

[argo]

Step 1: Lower the massive damage threshold. MDT = Con or MDT = 20 are good choices.

Step 2: Increase the save DC for massive damage. DC = 10 + (1/2 damage delt) is good for a "gritty" game. DC = 15 + (damage delt - 20) will scale well with level but will probably be beatable for most characters.

Presto, almost all the benefits of VP/WP and none of the drawbacks (poision anyone?). If you want some of the heroic effects of VP consider either increasing the rate of natural healing or using reserve points to get that "gimme a minute to catch my breath and we're good to go" feel.

If you want an espically deadly game then increase the damage dice of all weapons by one step. Be sure to keep plenty of spare character sheets handy though

Hope that helps.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

- The VP / WP system means that crits done by high-damage weapons are SCARY, no matter what level you are. A lightsaber wielded by a higher-level Jedi-type can do 4d8, 5d8, or more, with a crit range of 19-20. At that point, a crit will drop almost anyone, with a high chance of killing 'em outright.

That's the biggest difference if you've been playing D&D. In the second or third session of our SW campaign, the group's Jedi Consular went down to a vibroaxe crit. He lived (barely), but he hadn't been touched before that. It just seems strange to go down without being at least battered around a bit.

I haven't played d20M much, but adjusting the MDT would seem to be the easiest thing. Plus, you can fiddle with it some before settling on the change, and it won't require any real changes.

(Hrm...maybe add 1/2 level to Con for PCs? Or something so they're not ALWAYS dropping like flies?)

Brad

 

[Old Drew Id]

That's the biggest difference if you've been playing D&D. In the second or third session of our SW campaign, the group's Jedi Consular went down to a vibroaxe crit. He lived (barely), but he hadn't been touched before that. It just seems strange to go down without being at least battered around a bit.

That's specifically what we like about the VP/WP system. D&D players get used to the "you have to beat me down before you can kill me" mindset, and that doesn't reflect the tone that we go for in our game. Under the VP/WP system, a critical hit with a rifle (3d8 to 3d12 depending on the model) goes straight to WP, which can kill any character, regardless of level.

Also, one of the house rules that ledded left out for us is that falling damage goes directly to WP after the first 6d6. So a drop off of a 6 story building will just do VP damage, but a drop off of a 10 story building will do 6d6 VP and 4d6 WP damage.

Also, ordinaries do not get VP at all, regardless of level. So you can send in loads of "stormtrooper" mooks against the heroes, and they can be very good at attacking and skills (high level mooks) but they still go down with just one hit.

Also, as mentioned before in the Star Wars setting, as well as in Medallions, VP act as your fuel for Force powers or magic.

As for conversions of monsters, it is very easy. You just take their normal HP, and they get that amount of VP. Then you take their Con score and multiply it by a factor based on their size (I don't have it in front of me, but i think it is like Huge = ConX2) and you get their WP.

 

[Old Drew Id]

Here is the system we use. I downloaded this at one point over a year ago when we first started playing d20 Modern, and converted it from PDF to DOC format. Unfortunately, I no longer have the original PDF and I do not know the source, to give proper credit to whoever originally did this write-up. But this is the basis for our conversion rules, plus what I mentioned in the previous post about ordinaries and falling damage.

 

[reanjr]

I'm considering introducting WP/VP to my D20 Modern games to try to give firearms some actual firepower. I'm sick of mid-level D20 Modern characters laughing as they get shot at with AK-47's.

What are your experiences with WP/VP, either in D20 Modern or in its default system, Star Wars? Does it help increase deadliness of firearms (and combat in general)? Worth doing?

In my experience, it makes the characters easier to drop but harder to kill.

Whih works out spectacularly for my campaign (D&D; no firearms).

 

[apoc527]

My "Wound"/MDT System

Another good thread for posting my X-com d20 ideas.

Attached is a preliminary document laying out the rules for a much more detailed system using Massive Damage Thresholds. I have considered the VP/WP thing and concluded that it really doesn't fit a "gritty" game as well as a sufficiently modified HP/MDT system. The reason is that VP/WP inevitably ends up feeling very cinematic, as the PC's are shooting at classed NPC's and only the VP's are being used up until...you get that natural 20. Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket.

At any rate, these rules use the basic MDT rules and take them to the next level. Under this system, you can bleed for continuous HP loss, you can gain status effects like Fatigued and Exhaustion, and you can be reduced to as much as -7 HP in a single hit (if you fail a save). I haven't really balanced the numbers yet, but my current idea of using MDT/1.5xMDT/2xMDT seems to be the best so far. (See the attached document.)

The key thing to remember about these rules is that you will suffer certain effects NO MATTER IF YOU MAKE THE SAVE. In other words, if you get hit for more than your MDT score, there will be consequences even if you make the save. They are less grave than instant reduction to -1 HP, but they are nonetheless Not Good. The idea behind this is to remove the simple "alive-and-well/dying" dichotomy that d20 uses. There are now a number of ways to be injured and hurting without being reduced to 0 HP.

For a truly gritty game, fix the MDT's to something like 10/15/20 (a la CoC).

Here's the rules in a more or less completed format:

Note that the rules are for an X-com d20 game I'm working on, but apply well to any d20 Modern game that needs to be grittier or more realistic than the standard rules.

I also haven't gotten around to finishing up the treating wounds part, but I have extensive notes on the subject.