What's Your "Sweet Spot" for a Skill system?

[JohnSnow]

Yeah, I know that many (perhaps most) have more than 12. But I still think that 12 "feels" right. One of the goals, IMO, should make each of the skills at least somewhat equally weighted when playing a standard campaign in the system.

What we'd like to avoid, IMO, is things like 5e D&D's "tools" - where it's pretty obvious how useful a "thieves' tools" check might be, but far less obvious as to where in the game you might roll a "tinkerer's tools" check.

Which isn't to say that I'm against a variety of crafting styles! But I think that if you had an overall "craft" skill, for example, and had a simple-yet-robust support system for when/where/why you'd use it, it could easily be up to the specific character if they're a weaver/painter/tailor/carpenter or whatever.

That said, I admit that I haven't ever tried to put together a master list, and perhaps I'd find that I'd want more than 12. I guess it depends on if those 12 include combat skills, or if the skill system is separate (ala D&D).

SWADE absorbs most of them with a single “Repair” skill, which might also be called “mechanics,” because it covers everything except electronics and software. Herbalism could be rolled into either “Science,” “Survival,” or “Occult,” depending on the setting. I’ll have to see what Savage Pathfinder did.

You could certainly invoke the “skill specialization” rules, but I’d only do that if it were campaign relevant.

 

[JohnSnow]

I’ve honestly tried paring it down as much as possible, and I think my personal list (cribbed from Savage Worlds, but slightly modified) runs just under 2 dozen, including one for spellcasting and separate ones for shooting and fighting. Here it is:

• Academics
• Athletics*
• Bluff
• Common Knowledge*
• Driving
• Fighting
• Healing/Medicine
• Intimidation
• Language
• Notice*
• Performance
• Persuasion*
• Repair
• Riding
• Occult
• Science
• Seamanship
• Shooting
• Spellcasting
• Stealth*
• Survival
• Thievery

Stealing something else from SWADE, all characters start with “trained” in the 5 Core Skills, marked with an asterisk(*). Because you can’t survive childhood without them.

There’s still room for a few more, like “Sense Motive” and “Taunt,” or you could add “Artisan” if you wanted to distinguish it from Repair. And you’d need a few more in a modern campaign to handle technology. But Common Knowledge can do much of the heavy lifting in a lot of settings.

 

[MacDhomnuill]

I won’t run or play class/level games anymore so skills are the only way for me. I feel like ~30 skills is good for most fantasy games, modern and scifi games will often need more than that but top out at around 40.

 

[pointofyou]

My sweet spot for skills is probably better described as a range and defined as a set of principles.

There should be more skills than any single character can be good at. Jack of all Things is a viable idea but that's typically defined as much by the Master of None addendum as anything else.

There should not be more skills than a typical group of PCs can be good at. Most groups won't be good at the entire selection but that's a difference between principle and practice.

If skills are priced roughly equivalently they should be roughly equivalently useful. This is of course difficult to execute.

Characters should be able to succeed more or less reliably at what they're trying to be good at. There's some slack in this principle for tastes and preferences about both "more or less reliably" and whether there should be any consideration of level or tier or however a given game calls different power levels if it has them.

 

[Staffan]

I’ve honestly tried paring it down as much as possible, and I think my personal list (cribbed from Savage Worlds, but slightly modified) runs just under 2 dozen, including one for spellcasting and separate ones for shooting and fighting. Here it is:

This is the skill list from the Troubleshooters:

• Agility
• Alertness
• Charm
• Contacts
• Credit
• Electronics
• Endurance
• Engineering
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Investigation
• Languages
• Machinery
• Medicine
• Melee
• Prestidigitation
• Ranged Combat
• Red Tape
• Science
• Search
• Security
• Sneak
• Status
• Strength
• Subterfuge
• Survival
• Vehicles
• Willpower

Note that it includes some things that would be advantages of various sorts in other games, e.g. Status and Credit. I think the skill list works well overall, but I'd probably remove Entertainment and leave that as something that's handled via Abilities (e.g. Artist, which lets you perform/display a work and then get a bonus to social checks, or allow rerolls/flips of Charm or Status rolls related to your art).

Any given PC starts with 15% in each of these skills, and you start with 75% in one, 65% in four, and 45% in six of them (with some options for moving the points around a bit).

 

[kenada]

This is the list I have currently in my homebrew system. I didn’t think to include it in post #8, but if we’re doing skill lists now, here it is. The ones with *s are skills that are based on your experiences. If you have an appropriate experience, you can use them in an experience-appropriate way. You start with a few experiences at 1st level (plus a background). You gain more using long-term projects (e.g., finding someone to teach or train you).

I’m not 100% satisfied with this list. I’m pretty sure I need to do a pass on the social skills. The skills list is supposed to represent different methods you can combine with an approach, but some are unclear or overlap a bit too much. Others are not as well-specified as I’d like. I should also note that there is no perception skill, and investigation is not a replacement for it. Investigation and Research are for revealing information (investigation being immediate and research long-term).

• Athleticism
• Burglary
• Camouflage
• Cartography
• Connections
• Crafting*
• Deception
• Engineering
• Investigation
• Leadership
• Manipulation
• Negotiation
• Performance*
• Research
• Rhetoric
• Riding
• Rituals*
• Sabotage
• Seduction
• Sneaking
• Survival
• Tracking

Weapon and armor proficiencies work on the same math, but they’re separate. Weapons are by group (axes, bows, clubs, daggers, firearms, hammers, polearms, slings, sticks, swords, thrown, unarmed) and armor is by type (light, medium, heavy, unarmored). There’s also a shield proficiency, but it determines how many times you can use Block in a round. The number you add to your Armor is based on the shield’s quality.

 

[Jd Smith1]

This is the list I have currently in my homebrew system. I didn’t think to include it in post #8, but if we’re doing skill lists now, here it is. The ones with *s are skills that are based on your experiences. If you have an appropriate experience, you can use them in an experience-appropriate way. You start with a few experiences at 1st level (plus a background). You gain more using long-term projects (e.g., finding someone to teach or train you).

I’m not 100% satisfied with this list. I’m pretty sure I need to do a pass on the social skills. The skills list is supposed to represent different methods you can combine with an approach, but some are unclear or overlap a bit too much. Others are not as well-specified as I’d like

'Burglary' Seems an odd choice of skill title. I assume it covers lock-picking, finding traps, etc, but it feels a tad awkward.

Zweihander has a skill called Skullduggery, which covers the basic 'Thief' skills: pickpocket, lock pick, etc.

Does 'Manipulation' skill mean in the social interaction sense, or things like lock-picking, shoplifting, etc?

 

[kenada]

'Burglary' Seems an odd choice of skill title. I assume it covers lock-picking, finding traps, etc, but it feels a tad awkward.

That’s right. It’s not a great name, but I wanted something that implied locks and traps, and I dislike “thievery”.

Does 'Manipulation' skill mean in the social interaction sense, or things like lock-picking, shoplifting, etc?

It’s intended for social stuff, but I’d include sleight of hand and palming objects. That would work by manipulating the target’s attention while nimbly lifting the item (so Manipulation + Dexterity on the Skill Check). The distinction with Deception feels too subtle though. The social skills list needs another pass.

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

I'm fond of the Blades in the Dark breakdown of Action Ratings, but also games where you can have player-defined specialties such as their career or backgrounds that provide the sole or main bonus to a roll - like Cthulhu Dark or its descendants (Trophy, Cthulhu Deep Green or my own Pipedream RPG). 13th Age does this too in lieu of a skill system to go alongside its 3e/4e hybrid class system.

 

[pemerton]

Should boat-building or shipwrighting be a separate skill from (say) cartwrighting or wheelwrighting? (RM draws these sorts of distinctions; so does Burning Wheel; Torchbearer has a single Carpentry skill.)

Should Legal be a separate skill from Administration? (Classic Traveller Book 7 Merchant Prince prises these apart; in my Classic Traveller game I treat Admin as covering knowledge of the law.)

Should Intimidation be a separate skill from Bluffing or Deception? (In 4e D&D, RM and BW these are different; in Torchbearer they're one skill, Manipulation; Prince Valiant has Glamourie but not Intimidation; Classic Traveller bundles some aspects of intimidation into Interrogation and has no skill for interpersonal deception, though Forgery skill deals with faked documents.)

I don't think there is any "Platonic ideal" skill list. It depends on what sort of differences we think are important to draw in the fiction, and the extent to which the action resolution system is able to make those differences matter.