Wheel of Time?

[papastebu]

Could be worse. Could be the Xanth "trilogy" (almost up to 27 books---a trilogy of trilogy trilogies )

trilogy cubed?

 

[papastebu]

I think once the WoT is completed, someone (maybe even here) will publish a list of chapters from all 12 books that can be read to get the maximum experience from the series. Maybe with terse summaries of the chapters to be skipped. My memory from my last reading of books 7-10 is that there's only a few hundred pages of essential content in those four titles, and there are some sections in the earlier books that can likewise be skimmed over.

This would be helpful, but who's going to do it, and what if somebody who's never read the series would have like the parts they cut?

Certainly (IMO) the whole Perrin-chasing-Faile/Shaido sequence can go (or most of it, anyway), and big swaths of the Egwene-as-Amyrlin Seat, and Elayne-in-Caemlyn.

I agree with this. Most of these parts never seemed to actually push the story forward, to me. Seemed like they are just there to give some big characters something to do. In the volume that I am about to finish, you at least have the push -and-pull of Faile and Perrin aiding the Two Rivers as a way of pushing certain groups into position as key parts of the Last Battle. As far as Egwene becoming Amyrlin, I can see the necessity of her or one of the other three powerful channelers doing it, but why have the reincarnated Forsaken getting to her "in the perfect disguise"? It seemed to go nowhere. There were certain aspects of her ascension that made sense for the same reason as the Faile and Perrin in Emond's Field storyline. We all know why Mat is an awesome general, now, but why have him marry the Seanchan heir apparent? Just because that country's armies will do whatever she says, and by extension, follow him? More soldiers for the Last Battle.

You're probably right about his female characters, but I don't understand women either, so I guess I don't notice it as much.

I was gonna say that, except that I think he does an OK job with writing women, mostly. I've always felt that women generally write better for male characters than men write for women, but I think maybe Jordan approaches the whole think in these novels from a "battle of the sexes" standpoint. My dad is fond of saying that you can never win an argument with a woman, because women are always right, even when men are never wrong.

All Jordan needed was an editor who wasn't afraid to stand up to him when he started tending toward the bloat. WoT is still far better than Goodkind's Sword of Truth, in my opinion, and I only hope that GRR Martin's latest half-book isn't an indicator that he's falling into the same trap as Jordan did.

Even with the extra verbiage, WoT is exempliary, in my opinion. That don't mean I don't have a few d'ruthers.

 

[papastebu]

I just finished book six and I've come to the conclusion that he isn't bad at writing one *type* of female character, but he seems to be unable to conceive of one that isn't a short-sighted bully. That and the "everybody loves Rand" bit is tiresome.

As far as the series originally being four books, I'd say it really shows: the storyline changed quite radically after book four, where he started taking on the Forsaken and it was revealed that he wasn't really confronting the Dark One in the previous four books (or at least that is what I took from it -- I'm listening to it on audiobook so I may have missed something).

The length of the series does seem to be rather bloated, although I was warned about this before stating it (I wasn't planning on reading it until I found the audio version so I could listen to it while commuting to work -- time I wasn't really using anyway). Book six had some interesting bits (and a cool ending) but really could have been much shorter; I also understand the worst is yet to come in this regard. My question is whether that is to be blamed on Jordan, his editor or the publisher (trying to wring more revenue out of their cash cow?). Has anyone heard anything on the reason for the length of the series? I hear that Jordan actually issued an appology for book eight.

I'd not heard about that apology until now, but anything's possible. As to unnecessary length, I would guess that Jordan had a lot to say, regardless, and when writers get that famous, they tend not to be investigated as thoroughly. It wouldn't surprise me that the editor(s) figured he knew what to cut out by the 5th book or so, and the publisher didn't mind due to sales. Quality can suffer that way. I don't think it has suffered a lot, though.

 

[drothgery]

My question is whether that is to be blamed on Jordan, his editor or the publisher (trying to wring more revenue out of their cash cow?).

Several of the books were pushed rather quickly from manuscript to publication, with a much shorter editting cycle than is normal, because Tor makes a ton of money off of WoT, and so wants to get them out as soon as possible (at least, historically; given Jordan's health problems, they'll just be happy if he finishes book 12 at all).

 

[DethStryke]

Robert Jordan passed away today. That does not bode well for ever having a true ending to his Series.

Rest In Peace, good sir.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=90

 

[Aaron L]

I always loved the WoT, and loved how long it was. Like a comic book, it would keep coming out and continuing the story of Rand and Mat and Perrin.

I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series. Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

RJ will be missed.

 

[Glyfair]

Wheel of Time is a trilogy?

Piers Anthony used to have a note in his mini-biography that his failure in math manifests itself in his tendency to put more than 3 books in a trilogy.

 

[Darth Shoju]

I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series. Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

RJ will be missed.

Not to speak ill of the dead (I'll always respect the man at the least), but it isn't the same to me. The length of WoT would encompass years worth of comic book story lines. With WoT it is basically one finite story stretched out past plausibility; in the comics world, you'd get a lot more stuff happening in that many pages (different story arcs, etc).

In short, if RJ had managed to make a series this long where interesting things were actually happening it would be a different matter, but I found book six (which isn't even the worst offender by all accounts) to be very redundant in places and quite slowly paced in the middle. That may suit some tastes, but personally if I wasn't listening to it in my car in my down time I probably wouldn't have the patience for it. Comics are another story (and the ones that aren't I don't read).

 

[shilsen]

I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series. Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

It's not simply about the length for many critics of the series, such as me. I love epic stories, whether actually mythological ones (Mahabharata, Ramayana, Iliad, Aeneid, etc.) or fantasy (Tolkien, as the obvious one), and the size of a text is rarely an issue. But the length has to actually include things which are interesting and/or relevant. I really liked the first book of the WoT and quite enjoyed the next few. But Jordan soon lapsed into incredibly unnecessary verbosity and had reams of text which did absolutely nothing to either move the story along or give you a flavor of the world he wrote in. The fact that he quickly climbed very high on my list of people who can't write women at all (wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't also had so many female characters) didn't help matters at all. So eventually I quit reading him. Length had very little to do with it. Quality was the prime factor.

 

[papastebu]

It's not simply about the length for many critics of the series, such as me. I love epic stories, whether actually mythological ones (Mahabharata, Ramayana, Iliad, Aeneid, etc.) or fantasy (Tolkien, as the obvious one), and the size of a text is rarely an issue. But the length has to actually include things which are interesting and/or relevant. I really liked the first book of the WoT and quite enjoyed the next few. But Jordan soon lapsed into incredibly unnecessary verbosity and had reams of text which did absolutely nothing to either move the story along or give you a flavor of the world he wrote in. The fact that he quickly climbed very high on my list of people who can't write women at all (wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't also had so many female characters) didn't help matters at all. So eventually I quit reading him. Length had very little to do with it. Quality was the prime factor.

While I think you are absolutely correct about many parts of the novels not actually pushing the story forward, I think that the motion suffered because of his illustration of the world he obviously worked so hard on EDIT: more than the irrelevent plotlines or interminable, yet necessary ones END EDIT. From my reading, it seems like you can hardly turn around in these books without bumping into some background. While this helps with getting your head into the world, it does tend to run into the "rosy fingers of dawn" sort of problem. The difference in these works is that Jordan's own descriptions take the place of the quoted cliche.
As to Jordan's handling of women, I think that you could do an analysis of each of the prominent female characters and come up with a lot of commonalities.
BUT, two of them come from the Two Rivers, where the only things more stubborn than the men are the women. Add to that the fact that Nynaeve has been used to having to shout a little louder to prove herself in that environment, and you get somebody that is assertive to a fault, with next to no patience for anyone, much less those she finds foolish. On top of that, the woman can't channel without a mad-on, and she is learning to love doing this thing she's afraid of, so she keeps herself pissed-off about 85-90% of the time. Aside from all that, she's just a b h.

Egwene learned from Nynaeve, to start, and then went to the Tower, where obfuscators abound, and then went to the Wise Ones of the Aiel! These women are the most stubborn and intractible lot of a people to whom Two Rivers stubbornness is not even a patch.

Elayne Trakand is not a bully; she's royalty. She seems very kind-hearted, otherwise.
Min is somewhat of a tomboy, and is tough because of the world she grew up in, with brothers, and all. She doesn't strike me as a bully, either.

Moiraine has been an Aes Sedai for more than twenty years, aside to being very dedicated to what she has taken on as her duty. Her leading everyone around by the nose, as it were, is a function of her rather large experience versus the extreme inexperience of all of the others.

Siaun Sanche was the head of the Aes Sedai. If you don't need to be strong and unyielding to do that, I don't know when you would have to be.

Faile Bashere is the daughter of one of the greatest generals in the known world, and their women sometimes take over from their husbands who die in battle, where the women regularly accompany them.

Aviendha is, more or less, an Aiel Wise One, and was a Maiden of the Spear, before that.
All of these examples are just my observations. I can, occasionally, see the argument of "this just might be a man in a dress", but I think that Jordan has written a lot of strong women into these stories, and what you are seeing as bullying is that strength becoming visible.

One thing that I think he did overwrite, aside from the descriptions, is the miscommunication between men and women all the time. I find myself, over and over, thinking, "If you'd just tell him/her what was on your damn mind..."

Sorry for going on so long, but I wanted to say something about this when I read your first post, and I've thought about it a bit since.