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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6939629" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>You wrote: "it can be argued that non-human races can be representative/analogs to non-white, non-western peoples and cultures." If in fact they are representative or analogs to non-white, non-western peoples and cultures, then in fact they must also be one to one stands ins for various peoples or cultures. That's what words like "representative" and "analog" means. If your words in that statement mean something wholly different, as you now assert, how is the reader to know?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How in the world would I be expected to understand "it can be argued that non-human races can be representative/analogs to non-white, non-western peoples and cultures." to mean all that (whatever that means). That's not clarification. That's some completely different tangent.</p><p></p><p>What really gets me here is that you seem to think you are in making the above statement you are in some way backing off and making a lesser claim. But in fact you are making a greater claim. You now not only have to show that non-human races are stand-ins for real world ethnic groups or cultures, but that this portrayal was unjust. Leaving aside that until the first statement is proved the second remains a counter-factual, while the second part of that may be easier to show than the first and I might be more willing to concede it (hinted at in my first response), it is by no means a given that it is so. For example, see a work like "The Record of the Lodoss War". Themes of injustice?</p><p></p><p>Beyond that, I have a pretty good idea what is meant by the word "justice". It means something like, "A person gets what they deserve." But I see no sign that "themes of injustice" were being consciously or unconsciously explored by Gygax and others when they created D&D, much less when I read an entry in the Monster Manual. You certainly can have a game in which there is a story about justice or injustice, but I see no reason why you inherently have to do so because D&D has "themes of injustice" deeply rooted in its conception, construction, or engagement at the table. I'd personally love for games to be so deep and thoughtful, but in point of fact I don't think they usually are. </p><p></p><p>Besides which, when you say "justice" or "injustice", I suspect there is a bunch of other baggage you are hauling around, and that you are implicitly expecting me to unpack a lot of things you didn't say. I think what you really mean to say is that we can look at the worlds and creations we create in ways that are just or unjust, or create them in ways that are just or unjust, based on the biases that we bring with us to the table. And in that I might agree, but the exact application of that and what constitutes a just or unjust way of looking at things is going to be something there will be no universal consensus on. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't know me very well, but you should know I care little if someone attacks or disrespects me in the conventional sense you mean it.* I generally don't get upset about that sort of thing. The sort of things likely to provoke me to aggressive commentary have more to with what I see as intellectual laziness and unconsidered words. If you'll allow me a bit of my usual hubris, I like to think of myself as being a bit like Gandalf, who has to ask, "What do you mean by 'Good morning'.", when someone says, "Good morning", and its not clear even they know what they mean by it. Likewise, I get a little perturbed when people use "Good Morning", in a way that makes me marvel how many things that they use "Good morning" for, but I don't actually get offended by it. There are things that do offend me, but they aren't the sort of things that other people seem to worry about. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm rather a fan of living justly myself, and tending for the vulnerable - what has been at times called (without meaning it as a put down) "the least of these". But I'm not very much of a fan of the phrase "social justice", as I find that it's one of those modifiers that gets added to a word to make it mean rather the opposite of what it means. Quite often this is done with the best of intentions, but I'd rather it was not done at all.</p><p></p><p>*PS: I went back and tried to figure out why in the world you thought I was troubled by you disrespecting me, and I couldn't. The only time I employed the word "respect" was in reference to a different conversation, and the reason I employed it was not to contrast with this one or to imply you were being disrespectful (which if you were, I couldn't care less over), but that the conversation - because it was largely respectful despite the strong disagreement - might be worth your time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6939629, member: 4937"] You wrote: "it can be argued that non-human races can be representative/analogs to non-white, non-western peoples and cultures." If in fact they are representative or analogs to non-white, non-western peoples and cultures, then in fact they must also be one to one stands ins for various peoples or cultures. That's what words like "representative" and "analog" means. If your words in that statement mean something wholly different, as you now assert, how is the reader to know? How in the world would I be expected to understand "it can be argued that non-human races can be representative/analogs to non-white, non-western peoples and cultures." to mean all that (whatever that means). That's not clarification. That's some completely different tangent. What really gets me here is that you seem to think you are in making the above statement you are in some way backing off and making a lesser claim. But in fact you are making a greater claim. You now not only have to show that non-human races are stand-ins for real world ethnic groups or cultures, but that this portrayal was unjust. Leaving aside that until the first statement is proved the second remains a counter-factual, while the second part of that may be easier to show than the first and I might be more willing to concede it (hinted at in my first response), it is by no means a given that it is so. For example, see a work like "The Record of the Lodoss War". Themes of injustice? Beyond that, I have a pretty good idea what is meant by the word "justice". It means something like, "A person gets what they deserve." But I see no sign that "themes of injustice" were being consciously or unconsciously explored by Gygax and others when they created D&D, much less when I read an entry in the Monster Manual. You certainly can have a game in which there is a story about justice or injustice, but I see no reason why you inherently have to do so because D&D has "themes of injustice" deeply rooted in its conception, construction, or engagement at the table. I'd personally love for games to be so deep and thoughtful, but in point of fact I don't think they usually are. Besides which, when you say "justice" or "injustice", I suspect there is a bunch of other baggage you are hauling around, and that you are implicitly expecting me to unpack a lot of things you didn't say. I think what you really mean to say is that we can look at the worlds and creations we create in ways that are just or unjust, or create them in ways that are just or unjust, based on the biases that we bring with us to the table. And in that I might agree, but the exact application of that and what constitutes a just or unjust way of looking at things is going to be something there will be no universal consensus on. You don't know me very well, but you should know I care little if someone attacks or disrespects me in the conventional sense you mean it.* I generally don't get upset about that sort of thing. The sort of things likely to provoke me to aggressive commentary have more to with what I see as intellectual laziness and unconsidered words. If you'll allow me a bit of my usual hubris, I like to think of myself as being a bit like Gandalf, who has to ask, "What do you mean by 'Good morning'.", when someone says, "Good morning", and its not clear even they know what they mean by it. Likewise, I get a little perturbed when people use "Good Morning", in a way that makes me marvel how many things that they use "Good morning" for, but I don't actually get offended by it. There are things that do offend me, but they aren't the sort of things that other people seem to worry about. I'm rather a fan of living justly myself, and tending for the vulnerable - what has been at times called (without meaning it as a put down) "the least of these". But I'm not very much of a fan of the phrase "social justice", as I find that it's one of those modifiers that gets added to a word to make it mean rather the opposite of what it means. Quite often this is done with the best of intentions, but I'd rather it was not done at all. *PS: I went back and tried to figure out why in the world you thought I was troubled by you disrespecting me, and I couldn't. The only time I employed the word "respect" was in reference to a different conversation, and the reason I employed it was not to contrast with this one or to imply you were being disrespectful (which if you were, I couldn't care less over), but that the conversation - because it was largely respectful despite the strong disagreement - might be worth your time. [/QUOTE]
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