When and how do you tell a DM he is possibly in error?

[Jabborwacky]

Due to confusion, I'm restating the questions and the answers I've received off forum. The original post is preserved below the line.

I have encountered the following problems and felt unsure of whether it was worth stopping the DM to address them.

1. DM deciding that a creature doesn't need to make a saving throw against an area of effect spell (like ice knife or burning hands) just for being in a square directly behind another creature. He has also indicated he does not like "rules lawyers."

Answer: If the DM is clearly violating the rules, whether intentionally or unintentionally, you are well within your rights to interrupt the game to correct the DM. If the DM refuses to play by the rules, it is probably in your best interest to withdraw from the event, especially at higher levels.

2. DM deciding that certain detective magic spells should fail for fear of the plot being disrupted...

Answer: Unless the AL adventure module specifically states that a particular spell effect works differently, it should be resolved as written in the appropriate rulebook. The case provided was of a situation where the change had no effect on the game's outcome, but there could be cases where it does effect the outcome in a significant way. If it does, pull the DM over and point this out. In all likelihood he probably missed a detail and will thank you for it. Unfortunately, the players are unlikely to know such an unauthorized change occurred until after the fact. If so, bring it up with the DM who ran the game. If that is not possible, back up your claim with whatever evidence you have and contact your region's coordinator.

3. The DM accepted me into his game after I had explained my character. However, in the middle of the game the DM has arbitrated that I cannot use a skill in the way I have suggested in my character background. Moreover, I have played with other DMs who did let me use the skill in the way I had envisioned for my character and I have not violated the rules. What should I do?

Answer: If the change forces you to role-play an entirely different character than what you had envisioned, it is worth bringing it up with the DM. It goes against the spirit of the AL to allow a difference between tables where a particular character concept is viable at one table, but not at another. If the change negatively impacts your RP experience or obviously threatens your time investment, it would be best to withdraw from the current game.
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[sblock]Given how short a time span AL games are, there is a great deal of pressure to keep things moving along quickly. This makes it difficult to find time to interject when something might be in error. Some examples of the kinds of errors I'm referring to include:

1. DM deciding that a creature doesn't need to make a saving throw against an area of effect spell (like ice knife or burning hands) just for being in a square directly behind another creature. To clarify, the creatures are doing nothing to protect one another from the flames/electricity/ice that is flying out of the wizard's hands. Nor do they possess any trait or item particularly useful for deflecting such an attack.

2. DM deciding that certain detective magic spells should fail for fear of the plot being disrupted. For instance, if there is a man supposedly suffering a disease, yet no doctor has been able to diagnose it. Let's say I've run this adventure before and I know the disease is magical. I watch the party wizard cast detect magic only to hear the DM say "uh, nope! No magic here! But you might be able to solve this mystery if you find the poisoner!" Or something along those lines. Ultimately, they'd have to find the poisoner regardless of their knowledge.

3. DM having difficulty understanding how agility can play into combat, thus unintentionally making everything a strength check. For instance, it is entirely believable for a high agility character to use an opponent's own momentum to trip them. "The orc's triumphant grin turns to one of fearful realization: mid-swing and totally off-balance, he is now tripping over the end of the staff he had just dodged. With a subtle nudge, the orc falls face first in the dirt."

On the second one, I'd probably roll with it until the end of the session, but for the other two, how should I communicate to the DM without slowing down the game? To make things more complicated, what if the DM has made comments at the start that he doesn't particularly like rules lawyers? I don't consider correcting the above to be a rules lawyer type deal, but I have no idea what he interprets as a lawyer.[/sblock]

 

[ccs]

If it's a rules based issue I'd politely question it right then.

If it's a detail of an adventure I've read that the DMs running differently?
So what?
I know alterations are occurring. My character doesnt. So why would I question the DM?

 

[NeverLucky]

If it's a clear rules issue, I'll talk about it right there, with text backup if need be. If they resist, I just let the issue go unless it's really important (e.g. someone's life is on the line).

For adventure text problems and judgment differences, I just let the DM run with it unless it's extremely important. If they mess up on Detect Magic, oh well. If they try to have a Succubus use Draining Kiss to kill a character who isn't charmed (which I've seen happen multiple times), I'm going to speak up about it.

If it's a rules based issue I'd politely question it right then.

If it's a detail of an adventure I've read that the DMs running differently?
So what?
I know alterations are occurring. My character doesnt. So why would I question the DM?

Your character also doesn't know the rules of the game, or the fact that there's a DM at all. These are all metagame issues, so character doesn't really enter into it.

 

[Rune]

3. DM having difficulty understanding how agility can play into combat, thus unintentionally making everything a strength check. For instance, it is entirely believable for a high agility character to use an opponent's own momentum to trip them. "The orc's triumphant grin turns to one of fearful realization: mid-swing and totally off-balance, he is now tripping over the end of the staff he had just dodged. With a subtle nudge, the orc falls face first in the dirt."

On the second one, I'd probably roll with it until the end of the session, but for the other two, how should I communicate to the DM without slowing down the game? To make things more complicated, what if the DM has made comments at the start that he doesn't particularly like rules lawyers? I don't consider correcting the above to be a rules lawyer type deal, but I have no idea what he interprets as a lawyer.

It may be entirely believable (my brother, a high-Dex martial artist - who also often plays them - would certainly argue so every time), but in this case the DM would not be wrong. 5e's balance between strength and dexterity assumes that strength gets used for the offensive skills. Otherwise, Dex very much is the god-stat that many people claim it is.

 

[Jabborwacky]

It may be entirely believable (my brother, a high-Dex martial artist, who also often plays them would certainly argue so every time), but in this case the DM would not be wrong. 5e's balance between strength and dexterity assumes that strength gets used for the offensive skills. Otherwise, Dex very much is the god-stat that many people claim it is.

That kind of thinking just reduces acrobatics to a reflex saving throw. Skills are meant to be active, not purely reactive, which is all it would be if it cannot be used to some benefit. Aka, it has no reward to accompany its risk of failure.

Moreover, it really doesn't deal with the subject of the thread. I was simply asking for some helpful guidance on how to engage with a DM in the case of a mechanical issue showing up due to the speed at which AL games are conducted.

 

[Rune]

That kind of thinking just reduces acrobatics to a reflex saving throw. Skills are meant to be active, not purely reactive, which is all it would be if it cannot be used to some benefit. Aka, it has no reward to accompany its risk of failure.

There are plenty of uses for acrobatics that don't involve making people prone. And I'm not saying that you are wrong if you allow it as a DM. I'm just saying that another DM who doesn't isn't just not wrong, but also may have a very good reason not to.

 

[Jabborwacky]

There are plenty of uses for acrobatics that don't involve making people prone. And I'm not saying that you are wrong if you allow it as a DM. I'm just saying that another DM who doesn't isn't just not wrong, but also may have a very good reason not to.

That is not entirely correct. If the DM accepts the player into the game, hears in the character's introduction that he is a wizard with formal defensive training, and even was warned ahead of time he was going to show up with this particular character, it is unfair of the DM to reject the proposed use of the skill. That's just pulling the carpet out from under the player. That is specifically the kind of situation I ran into in my first AL game.

But this is getting outside the point. When and how should I address a DM in a AL game so that I'm not slowing the game down? I'm trying to prevent a situation where we get into a long discussion about rules so we can keep the game going. I'm fine with letting something slide until an opportune moment, but when is that opportune moment?

Perhaps I made the mistake of assuming people adhered to the following:
1. Never make a player feel like his investments or character concept is worthless.
2. If it comes down to a choice between rules or having fun, fun comes first.

I suppose I'm asking the wrong crowd of people, and I'll take my inquiries elsewhere.

 

[KahlessNestor]

That is not entirely correct. If the DM accepts the player into the game, hears in the character's introduction that he is a wizard with formal defensive training, and even was warned ahead of time he was going to show up with this particular character, it is unfair of the DM to reject the proposed use of the skill. That's just pulling the carpet out from under the player. That is specifically the kind of situation I ran into in my first AL game.

But this is getting outside the point. When and how should I address a DM in a AL game so that I'm not slowing the game down? I'm trying to prevent a situation where we get into a long discussion about rules so we can keep the game going. I'm fine with letting something slide until an opportune moment, but when is that opportune moment?

Perhaps I made the mistake of assuming people adhered to the following:
1. Never make a player feel like his investments or character concept is worthless.
2. If it comes down to a choice between rules or having fun, fun comes first.

I suppose I'm asking the wrong crowd of people, and I'll take my inquiries elsewhere.

You're the one who brought up the example. People are just telling you you don't have rules support to back it up. Switching ability skills for specific situations is allowed, but a gray area, which means it is the DM's call and specically NOT a rules question in AL. Your fluff character intro doesn't change the rules, and in fact his ruling using strength has more support in RAW than yours.

AL doesn't always have the flexibility of a home game. You need accept there will be table variation.

If you really want to have the rules discussion, bring it up after the session. Or come earlier to discuss it. No need to be rude to the rest of us if you're not getting the answer you want for your special snowflake.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[Eltab]

I've been the guy who pulls out the Rule Book, finds the spell description / mechanical description / whatever in question, and says "Excuse me, but it doesn't work like that." Then I'll read the needed sentence or describe - BRIEFLY ! - how it does work. Most DMs I've been with will take correction from An Authoritative Source much better than "I think it should work like this instead of what you did".

If you can't find the Rule for the ruling you want to question before Player X's turn is over, let it go until the action is finished, then bring it up. Don't ask for a complete do-over, just put out as "for future reference". Don't back up Player X if he begins "you cheated me", either. Act so as to improve and reinforce the DM, not to undermine him.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

...

3. The DM accepted me into his game after I had explained my character. However, in the middle of the game the DM has arbitrated that I cannot use a skill in the way I have suggested in my character background. Moreover, I have played with other DMs who did let me use the skill in the way I had envisioned for my character and I have not violated the rules. What should I do?

Answer: If the change forces you to role-play an entirely different character than what you had envisioned, it is worth bringing it up with the DM. It goes against the spirit of the AL to allow a difference between tables where a particular character concept is viable at one table, but not at another. If the change negatively impacts your RP experience or obviously threatens your time investment, it would be best to withdraw from the current game.
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[sblock]
...
3. DM having difficulty understanding how agility can play into combat, thus unintentionally making everything a strength check. For instance, it is entirely believable for a high agility character to use an opponent's own momentum to trip them. "The orc's triumphant grin turns to one of fearful realization: mid-swing and totally off-balance, he is now tripping over the end of the staff he had just dodged. With a subtle nudge, the orc falls face first in the dirt."
...
[/sblock]

I agree with the first two. But the last one is not in accordance with the rules of the game, which requires a Str(Athletics) check to Shove an opponent prone, unless there is a special circumstance that would allow otherwise. You posit that 'It goes against the spirit of the AL to allow a difference' between tables, but it sounds like the precedent here is coming from DMs who are not following the rules.

As an AL DM I'm not going to be bound by what other DMs have allowed beyond the rules of the game when they run. I think it's fine for your character to have a background that allows them to use Dex over Str in this case - though a as a DM of a non-AL game I'd want you to have a special Background or Feat for it in my game. However, it doesn't appear to conform to the RAW, which would be a problem for me when I DM an AL game. For fairness' sake, I wouldn't allow it. As a player you need to make concessions to the AL environment, just like DMs do.