When are effects identical?

[Alnag]

Hello, I am not quite sure about this rule (PHB3, glossary):

You never make multiple saving throws against identical effects. You do, however, make separate saving throws against effects that aren't
identical, (even if they contain the same condition). For example, dazed (save ends) and dazed and immobilized (save ends both) are not identical effects. so you must make separate saving throws against them.

We are not in agreement (possibly due to the fact we are not native speakers) what does "identical effect" means. If different powers cause same condition (eg. dazed) does that mean, it is identical effect?

Or to provide an example.

I have an elf rogue. He was hit by evil minotaur wizard with his power "Evil charm" and was dazed (save ends). Now the Minotaur's henchman hits poor rogue with a staff and power "Knock the bastard" and would daze him again (save ends, again).

Do I save separately for those two dazed (save ends) conditions, making two saves each round. Or is this the above mentioned identical effect and I ignore the effect of the second power?

Thank you for answer. This causes lot of disturbance in our community, I would like to solve it.

 

[Jhaelen]

dazed (save ends) and dazed (save ends) are identical effects. It doesn't matter what caused the effects.

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

Correct.

However, dazed (save ends) is not the same as dazed and weakened (save ends).

 

[Mort_Q]

...dazed (save ends) is not the same as dazed and weakened (save ends).

I'd think that a single save would eliminate both the dazed and the weakened conditions. You can only be dazed once.

 

[Alnag]

I'd think that a single save would eliminate both the dazed and the weakened conditions. You can only be dazed once.

Well, I suspect that because this is the case of different effects which save separately. But I am not sure, of course.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

I'd think that a single save would eliminate both the dazed and the weakened conditions. You can only be dazed once.

The quoted bit of rules in the OP disagrees with you.

You can only be dazed once, but if a second daze is part of another effect, then you have to roll two different saves: one for the "just dazed" effect and one for the "dazed plus something" effect.

 

[Mort_Q]

The quoted bit of rules in the OP disagrees with you.

True, but until my PH3 shows up, I'd play it my way.

 

[Kingreaper]

I'd think that a single save would eliminate both the dazed and the weakened conditions. You can only be dazed once.

This seems counterintuitive to me.

It means that if you have a bunch of effects on you, the best way to get rid of ALL of them, is to get hit with one super-effect, that contains all the others, and then just save from that one...

 

[Mort_Q]

Agrees... but it's kind of hard to convince the DM to hit you with some super-effect... not do I try to game the system... The PH3 write up makes sense though.