RobertBrus
Explorer
I agree with your disagreement. My focus is primarily on the various D&D versions and Pathfinder. I don't have adequate familiarity with half, or more, of the existing RPG systems out there.
D&D 5E When did Role become Roll?
I agree with your disagreement. My focus is primarily on the various D&D versions and Pathfinder. I don't have adequate familiarity with half, or more, of the existing RPG systems out there.
RobertBrus
Explorer
RobertBrus
Explorer
I won't apologize as I have already done so, but I have edited out that line in the original post, as I see how inflammatory it can be.
jgsugden
Legend
Role and roll have both been a part of RPGs from day one and we've always been balancing the two.
D&D is a role playing game. Your characters play a role in a story. You want to make sure it is a good story.
However, we said it is a role playing game. You're playing a game. Games are contests resolved by a combination of skill and luck. In D&D, the game mechanics are what separate the RPG from a storytelling exercise. We surrender some of the control over the story to the roll of the dice and the constraints of a rule set in order to create mystery, opportunity and the unknown.
A great RPG is one in which the role playing and the game playing are both excellently served by the mechanics of the RPG. I believe 5E to be an excellent game because it balances freedom of story with supporting structures so that you feel free to let your characters do anything reasonable, but feel like they're doing it in a world that has reasonable and sensible boundaries. When I compare 5E to 4E, I feel like this ruleset provides players with more freedom to choose actions outside a proscribed list - encouraging players to tell a better story rather than just hack and slash.
However, 4E, 3.5, 3E, 2E S&P, 2E, AD&D, original D&D... as well as Gurps, Paranoia, Champions, Rifts, and every other RPG out there are balances of mechanics and story - and although each version of these games provides a different balance between mechanics and story, they all provide enough of each to allow a DM/GM and the players to create a wonderful experience.
D&D is a role playing game. Your characters play a role in a story. You want to make sure it is a good story.
However, we said it is a role playing game. You're playing a game. Games are contests resolved by a combination of skill and luck. In D&D, the game mechanics are what separate the RPG from a storytelling exercise. We surrender some of the control over the story to the roll of the dice and the constraints of a rule set in order to create mystery, opportunity and the unknown.
A great RPG is one in which the role playing and the game playing are both excellently served by the mechanics of the RPG. I believe 5E to be an excellent game because it balances freedom of story with supporting structures so that you feel free to let your characters do anything reasonable, but feel like they're doing it in a world that has reasonable and sensible boundaries. When I compare 5E to 4E, I feel like this ruleset provides players with more freedom to choose actions outside a proscribed list - encouraging players to tell a better story rather than just hack and slash.
However, 4E, 3.5, 3E, 2E S&P, 2E, AD&D, original D&D... as well as Gurps, Paranoia, Champions, Rifts, and every other RPG out there are balances of mechanics and story - and although each version of these games provides a different balance between mechanics and story, they all provide enough of each to allow a DM/GM and the players to create a wonderful experience.
nswanson27
First Post
Geeknamese
Explorer
Different strokes for different folks.
I, for one, prefer the type of game that the OP presents. I started out playing the game with AD&D and as I matured over the years and played through all the crunchy/system mastery versions of the game, I started to get a little bored of the mechanics and rat race for power of the game.
It wasn’t until I joined a really great group with a very good DM who was a fantastic storyteller and improviser that the narratively elements began to shine and take precedence over game mechanics and winning binary scenarios. When the DM’s style began to unfold and more trust was built because losing was “failing forward” and still advancing the narrative in an interesting way. This allowed players to trust more and make more honest-to-their-character’s decisions regardless of risks or potential outcomes. Eventually, this led to players optimizing less, making more interesting character concepts and being more immersed in their characters, the world and the story.
I would happily join the OP’s game any day.
Sent from my iPhone using EN World
I, for one, prefer the type of game that the OP presents. I started out playing the game with AD&D and as I matured over the years and played through all the crunchy/system mastery versions of the game, I started to get a little bored of the mechanics and rat race for power of the game.
It wasn’t until I joined a really great group with a very good DM who was a fantastic storyteller and improviser that the narratively elements began to shine and take precedence over game mechanics and winning binary scenarios. When the DM’s style began to unfold and more trust was built because losing was “failing forward” and still advancing the narrative in an interesting way. This allowed players to trust more and make more honest-to-their-character’s decisions regardless of risks or potential outcomes. Eventually, this led to players optimizing less, making more interesting character concepts and being more immersed in their characters, the world and the story.
I would happily join the OP’s game any day.
Sent from my iPhone using EN World
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Warpiglet
Adventurer
hate to say it but the middle path wins.
We try to be in character but often describe what we do. There are asides among friends since this is for fun and not money.
When we play it is not DM against players but it IS players against death. To that end, we try to be as successful as possible in a dungeon within some parameters. We do not do things that seem totally contrary to our character. It might be expedient for the paladin to murder all noncombatants, but his alignment (say LG) means this does not make much sense for his personality as previously played.
But do we scream fireball them! Or help, my dude is nearly dead!---? Yes. And high five when someone pulls something off. Our characters are probably not high fiving in the dungeon if there are still enemies, of course.
But your point is taken, the fighter should probably not be telling the wizard the ins and outs of dispel magic. But mark the player might remind bob it is an option. Like you say this is a cooperative game.
We try to be in character but often describe what we do. There are asides among friends since this is for fun and not money.
When we play it is not DM against players but it IS players against death. To that end, we try to be as successful as possible in a dungeon within some parameters. We do not do things that seem totally contrary to our character. It might be expedient for the paladin to murder all noncombatants, but his alignment (say LG) means this does not make much sense for his personality as previously played.
But do we scream fireball them! Or help, my dude is nearly dead!---? Yes. And high five when someone pulls something off. Our characters are probably not high fiving in the dungeon if there are still enemies, of course.
But your point is taken, the fighter should probably not be telling the wizard the ins and outs of dispel magic. But mark the player might remind bob it is an option. Like you say this is a cooperative game.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
Reactions:
1) All of the answers along the lines of "Day 1" are spot on.
2) Did the OP just start playing RPGs? This has been a debate since...well, see answer above.
3) As for DMs being adversarial, I'm sure EGG wrote Tomb of Horrors to encourage players to explore the nuances of their characters' personalities.
1) All of the answers along the lines of "Day 1" are spot on.
2) Did the OP just start playing RPGs? This has been a debate since...well, see answer above.
3) As for DMs being adversarial, I'm sure EGG wrote Tomb of Horrors to encourage players to explore the nuances of their characters' personalities.
Warpiglet
Adventurer
The start of the game had a lot of focus on skill. And no, not just using your character's voice and inflection, but battle strategy, preparation for dungeons, evaluation of equipment, light sources, supplies and weapons. There was plenty of problem solving, riddle solving and social interaction. There was mapping, getting lost, bad consequence for bad decisions...
and play acting as well.
The game was unique because it had BOTH but its roots are in wargaming. It was not vampire or some free form collaboarative story time.
But the truth is that the game is owned by its participants. We can play how we want to play. Different choices do not mean it has gone totally astray.
I have played intermittently for more than 35 years and I have seen different takes on things. But to look at 5e and say the game has degenerated into a dice game suggests
A. that a dice game is bad
B. that is how you choose to play it, or
C. you might not have read very carefully where they discuss using dice in uncertain situations and common sense in others.
To be really good at the game can mean use of dice in ways that do not take from the narrative or slow it down excessively. For my group, dice are fun and wanted. The numbers are fun. Numbers with roleplaying is the most fun. I suspect most pay attention to theater and dice.
What a fun, fun hobby/distraction...my absolute top choice for fun...
Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
I've always thought that was such a cop out answer. Really, you could have just a note saying, "to use monsters and NPCs from (the) previous edition(s), simply subtract their Armor Class from 20 (or use this handy chart), and use the new attack bonuses for class levels or Hit Dice."
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