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When did We Stop Trusting Game Designers?

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Actually, I don't think a list of "Complete XX" books makes a compelling case for your argument. Most of these books are terribly shoddy and well deserved their infamy.

Now, I need to back up a little bit: I am not a 2e hater. I think it is easily the most unappreciated and unjustly hated of any D&D incarnation. Its setting books are some of the best from any era. I loved the revisions to the core system -- I thought they did a great job cleaning up and consolidating 1e, and I really didn't miss much of the stuff they dropped. Yeah, excising demons and devils was a tremendous mistake, and it would have been nice to have keep many of the appendices from the old DMG. And the ring binder monster book format was nice in theory, but turned out to be not so much in practice. But overall, I was pretty happy with the changes to the core and I loved the new permissive attitude.

But I still remember the first time I read through the Complete Fighter's Handbook, and how my heart sank. Compared to the revisions to the core books, the Handbook was a pretty shoddy thing: badly edited, with big text, wide margins, lots of recycled or crappy new black-and-white art, bland writing, and wonky mechanics. It was a disaster, as were most of the other books in the line. There was no design consistency between the books in terms of the new Non-Weapon Proficiencies or kits, so you had options that varied widely in power, utility, and just plain interest.

Many of the designers who worked on these books are actually pretty good, but that didn't really shine through. The books read like they were hastily thrown together and only barely edited, with no developer review. In fact, the Complete XX books became almost the industry benchmark for shoddy splatbooks. (Which is why I was so puzzled when Mongoose introduced its Quintessential line, which so explicitly mimicked the "turd standard.")

WotC struggled at points with quality control, both early on in 3.0 and again in 3.5. But at no point did their standards drop as low as the Complete XXs. Even though there were many great 2e products, I'm afraid that TSR largely earned a reputation for focusing too much on quantity over quality. And that couldn't have been good for business.

And this is a relatively fair critique and opinion. I don't agree with you:p, but it's still a fair critique. I wasn't so much defending the quality of the books, even though I like them, as I was saying they aren't corporate driven filler solely intended to bring in revenue.

I'll agree though, that some of those books did have there issues and were by no means perfect.
 

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catsclaw227

First Post
We've had this means for over 25 years. There were message boards dedicated to D&D as far back as 1982 when I first got online with a 300 baud modem on my C-64. BBS' were full of D&D players even back then. In fct, I'd wager D&D was second only to hardware and software forums at the time, as both computers and D&D drew a certain geekish type person - like me!:-S
Sure, and I remember chatting on Compuserve back in 1989 (and wasting LOADS of cash doing it) about D&D topics as well.

But, you have to admit, it is a speck compared to what is available now, and there's a vastly larger number of people and opportunities to scream online now.
 

eyebeams

Explorer
Two things.
1: The 2e rule supplements tended to have plenty of actual rule changes or expansions into new territory (Complete Fighter's Handbook was one of the first books released, and it had kits, piecemeal armor, weapon styles, and unarmed specialization that worked quite differently from weapon specialization). By comparison, 3e supplements tended to be more about things to do within the rules (new feats, prestige classes, spells, items). This changed somewhat in later-era 3.5, when the designers started doing weird stuff like the Tome of Magic or the Book of Nine Swords.

This is a difference in the structure of each system, not the amount of new rules. How many PRCs were published? How many feats? Tons and tons. The fact that they plugged in to prior definitions more tightly doesn't take away the sheer volume of stuff.

2: The chart you link to only covers core material, but a big portion of 2e's bloat came from settings. Not just "fluff", but also significant amounts of "crunch". For example, Dark Sun had 32 products released during its six-year span - more than the 28 books the Forgotten Realms got in nine years of 3e. And that was just one of twelve settings that got support during 2e. Out of those 32, 12 are ones I'd classify as "crunch-heavy" (not counting adventures).

This leads to the error in online thinking I'm talking about. Why do you care some setting you never played in has different rules?
 

eyebeams

Explorer
Actually, I don't think a list of "Complete XX" books makes a compelling case for your argument. Most of these books are terribly shoddy and well deserved their infamy.

Now, I need to back up a little bit: I am not a 2e hater. I think it is easily the most unappreciated and unjustly hated of any D&D incarnation. Its setting books are some of the best from any era. I loved the revisions to the core system -- I thought they did a great job cleaning up and consolidating 1e, and I really didn't miss much of the stuff they dropped. Yeah, excising demons and devils was a tremendous mistake, and it would have been nice to have keep many of the appendices from the old DMG. And the ring binder monster book format was nice in theory, but turned out to be not so much in practice. But overall, I was pretty happy with the changes to the core and I loved the new permissive attitude.

But I still remember the first time I read through the Complete Fighter's Handbook, and how my heart sank. Compared to the revisions to the core books, the Handbook was a pretty shoddy thing: badly edited, with big text, wide margins, lots of recycled or crappy new black-and-white art, bland writing, and wonky mechanics. It was a disaster, as were most of the other books in the line. There was no design consistency between the books in terms of the new Non-Weapon Proficiencies or kits, so you had options that varied widely in power, utility, and just plain interest.

Many of the designers who worked on these books are actually pretty good, but that didn't really shine through. The books read like they were hastily thrown together and only barely edited, with no developer review. In fact, the Complete XX books became almost the industry benchmark for shoddy splatbooks. (Which is why I was so puzzled when Mongoose introduced its Quintessential line, which so explicitly mimicked the "turd standard.")

WotC struggled at points with quality control, both early on in 3.0 and again in 3.5. But at no point did their standards drop as low as the Complete XXs. Even though there were many great 2e products, I'm afraid that TSR largely earned a reputation for focusing too much on quantity over quality. And that couldn't have been good for business.

The Complete series was envisioned way back in the beginning of 2e as a way to add a single emphasis to the base rules set -- it was discussed this way in Dragon while 2e was still being designed. They were never supposed to be "splatbooks" in the sense that each character used a different book. And in isolation, most of them were good -- and some of them were great. And again, you were *trusted* to define how you used them and negotiate your own connections.

What I'm reading a lot of is a desire for a stronger editorial/line development stance, which is pretty much the opposite of wanting game designers to experiment and innovate, because basically, y'all are saying you *want* a Guy in a Suit who puts the beatdown on independent ideas that don't fit a core conception of the line.
 

justanobody

Banned
Banned
When game designers stopped designing games and corporations started designing them. Also when game designers ideas started to diverge from our own ideas. Each edition of D&D has had things people have thrown out or altered, but when too many things had to be thrown out or altered it means the ideas we no longer the same for designers and gamers. The thread connecting them had been stretched too thin.
 

Mark Chance

Boingy! Boingy!
Here's my belated 2 cents worth:

Trust has nothing to do with it. I don't know Mike Mearls. I don't know Monte Cook. I didn't know Gary Gygax. To me, they're little more than names on products. If I like those products, I might buy and use them. If I don't, I won't, no matter whose name is on the cover.

I reserve trust for people I actually know. When it comes to shelling out money for a product, it's always caveat emptor for me.
 

Delta

First Post
And the elephant in the room: A lot of people don't like 4E. They talk about it here. As sometimes happens, they may use hyperbole, exaggeration or inflated rhetoric to make their point. Some of them are outright rude. Two years ago, there were people who didn't like 3E. They talked about it here. As sometimes happens, they occasionally used hyperbole, exaggeration or inflated rhetoric to make their point. Some of them were outright rude. Had ENWorld been around in 1989, I'm sure we would've seen the same thing when 2E came out. So it goes.

ENWorld ("here") is in a really awkward position, because it was explicitly founded as being dedicated to one specific edition: 3E ("Eric Noah's 3E Site"). 4E threw that mission statement into a tailspin, because you can't both be the current edition and 3E at the same time anymore (like it was up until this year).

So, the splitting of the customer base has made for a really different environment on ENWorld, and I doubt it will ever recapture that. As long as it seeks to now welcome multiple very different editions, we'll always have these edition wars from now on.

Part of me wishes that ENWorld had chosen to go either (a) 3E only, or (b) 4E only, and not try to straddle everything at the same time, and hence host ongoing edition wars forevermore.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
...Part of me wishes that ENWorld had chosen to go either (a) 3E only, or (b) 4E only, and not try to straddle everything at the same time, and hence host ongoing edition wars forevermore.

How about two separate pages: 3ENWorld and 4ENWorld.;) Of course then we'd need another server drive.:(

edit: I am just joking, I like ENWorld's setup. I think it has room for all editions equally. I don't think it's the setup as much as it is peoples behavior which is causing problems. I just don't understand hating an edition or the wars that have to ensue because of it. I very definitely have my preference when it comes to editions, but I don't hate the others, or have a problem with those who play them. That is, unless they have a problem with me...:devil::eek::p
 
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justanobody

Banned
Banned
I just don't understand hating an edition or the wars that have to ensue because of it. I very definitely have my preference when it comes to editions, but I don't hate the others, or have a problem with those who play them. That is, unless they have a problem with me...:devil::eek::p

It evolves form the same place all other wars do, when boundaries are crossed and someone's space is invaded. Gamers like countries have their own boundaries that they feel shouldn't be crossed, and when they do they are not very happy about it. This also comes from other gamers who play differently in the same edition as well as what people feel towards game designers when something is changed within the game that disassociates them from the game from moving the boundaries.
 

Cryptos

First Post
Ok, here's a topical example: the recent revelation by Mearls that for a while, they thought that the definition of controller would mean "doing damage to multiple targets at once." Only to have them later realize that that's not what 'controller' means or should mean.

More than a decade after fantasy computer games and MMO RPGs had established buffers, debuffers, mezzers, stunners, and so forth... and classes that, for the most part, just did those things and were light on the damage side.

All the while many pen-and-paper roleplaying games had for years encouraged or allowed non-damage, 'controlling' builds. You could build a character in systems like HERO or M&M that was perfectly viable with just powers such as Hypnosis, Snare, Stun or Illusion. Or even games like Vampire, which had several character archetypes that manipulated crowds with their voice or their mere presence, or were only strong in combat because they could stop someone that was actually dangerous in their tracks. Heck, even Werewolf, the game of biting things to death, had character types that were more about the manipulation of things than the killing of things.

Let alone that, in fiction, for decades (even centuries and millenia) you had characters, types of characters and things that weren't necessarily dangerous because they could chomp on you but because they could turn you to stone or lure you to your doom.

And finally, long, long after the English language gave us:
con⋅trol  /kənˈtroʊl/ n-trohl
verb, -trolled, -trol⋅ling, noun –verb (used with object)
1. to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command.
2. to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions.
3. to test or verify (a scientific experiment) by a parallel experiment or other standard of comparison.
4. to eliminate or prevent the flourishing or spread of: to control a forest fire.
5. Obsolete. to check or regulate (transactions), originally by means of a duplicate register.
Note the general lack of killing things in the meaning of the word.

I think that, on some level, I stopped trusting the judgment of (certain) game designers when they started designing with blinders on, as though they were the first ones to ever try to do something, or when they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

It's less a trust issue and more an "Are we speaking the same language?" issue.

For my example above, while it's probably true that Role (as in D&D4e) has never been so prominent and deeply rooted - or perhaps just as formalized - in the design of D&D, it's not like the concept of combat roles didn't exist previously. What they were trying to accomplish had been done dozens upon dozens of times.

So, for something that is not a new concept to millions of gamers, they for some reason had to figure out what the term meant and how to design it.

It boggles the mind. I mean, it takes a certain kind of "special" to take the word control, and think, 'damage several things at once.' The kind of "special" that usually involves riding in the little bus with all the safety padding.

But overall, I feel it's healthy to have a level of skepticism about everything. Historically, I never considered the issue of "trusting" a game designer. There were game systems I liked, and game systems where I thought, "ok, that's just ridiculous."

So it's not that I suddenly stopped 'trusting' game designers. It's more that I'm probably just more skeptical of some of the bigger RPG companies' abilities to speak the same language as the gamers. There have been a lot of "what were they smoking?" moments in the last couple versions of D&D.

Now, I respect the fact that he admits this. It answers a lot of questions and opens WotC up to a lot of potential criticism. But 'trust' isn't something I would apply as a term to 'someone who writes books.' I might decide whether or not to trust a doctor operating on my head... I don't really think in terms of 'trust' for roleplaying games. I don't know the person from Adam and I don't have to trust them, just agree or disagree with what the rules say. It seems bizarre to me that anyone would say they do or don't trust an artist in relation to his art. That said, if I think they've done something boneheaded or unfathomable, I'm going to call them on it. If they repeatedly do things that are boneheaded or unfathomable, I'll probably give their work a hairier eyeball than usual. But trust isn't the word I'd use to describe that. I tend to evaluate all rules regardless of who wrote them.
 
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