When do you throw initiative?

[Lanefan]

There's a reason I prefer rules-light. This thread is a perfect example of it: with rules-heavy, as we're seeing here, the game has to give way to the rules rather than the rules giving way to the game. Once they engage there's no problem, but all these other rules seem to be just getting in the way of starting the battle.

Another way to bypass the problem: have gladiatorial combats start with the combatants touching the tips of their weapons to each other in salute. That way they're already in melee range when the dice start flying.

Lan-"reading discussions like this makes me want to scream in frustration"-efan

 

[Water Bob]

There's a reason I prefer rules-light. This thread is a perfect example of it: with rules-heavy, as we're seeing here, the game has to give way to the rules rather than the rules giving way to the game.

This is a very good point. D&D has always been one of the most rules heavy RPGs ever written.

I actually like both. I see the fun in "rules light". Classic Traveller is one of my all-time favorite games, and you can't get much more rules-light than that game.

But, I love D&D, too. All the crunch and growth from its wargame roots can be quite fun as well.

Another way to bypass the problem: have gladiatorial combats start with the combatants touching the tips of their weapons to each other in salute. That way they're already in melee range when the dice start flying.

There is one way to "fix" the gladitorial problem, as it's becoming know. I'm surprised that nobody hasn't mentioned it yet.

Instead of throwing nish before the gladiators enter the ring, keep them in "scenes". That's the same as doing it "rules light".

When you're in "scenes", you're not locked to exact movement rates and what not. You say that you want your character to move over here, and the GM says, "OK, but you get about half way, and this happens."

At that point is usually where nish is thrown, and we go into combat rounds.

Thus, the players of the gladiators could move their characters, pander to the crowd, and move around as they want, under the GM's guidance, until someone says, "OK, my character screams a battle cry and charges him!"

At that point, you roll nish and go into combat rounds.

That's really the best "fix" for the perceived problem, I think. What I don't like about it is that a gladiator can get caught flat-footed in the ring, and I think he's probably knowing that he's about to get into a fight and ready for it.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

Well, if the two combatants are too scared to fight, put a time limit on it. If it is a forced fight (Gladiatorial slaves, criminals, etc.), the master of the ring gets bored and forces them to fight or his guards open fire with their ranged weapons from on high. If it is a contest-style, both forfeit if they don't actually fight.

 

[ThirdWizard]

What about multiple attacks? In the case of multiple attacks, the situation reverses. You don't want to charge, because you only get one attack, leaving yourself open to multiple attacks! This can be patched over with Power Attack, but it can still be an issue, especially against a multi-weapon wielder.

So, the person who closes, in this case, is worse off.

Again, a point for giving both gladiators javelins.

 

[jimmifett]

I would roll init as soon as the gladiators came out, since both parties knew there'd be a fight in the arena.

For the standoff, if my players are smart, they move forward and ready "when an enemy comes within x, I charge".

If the enemy never triggers the charge, that still allows the players (or the enemy) to change position around the field.

I would find a way to set up a pincer formation, and the other ready for "when the defender gets attacked". Have the defender move forward, accepting the attack (hoping for a miss), then the pincers close in and surround the enemy, hopefully getting CA.

They key to handling these standoffs, is the players tell you, the DM, thier readied action. As a DM, part of the contract is that you expect your monsters to die, eventually. You know what the players are going to do, but you have to get in the head of your monster. Is this his first rodeo, would he recognize an opponent holding something back? So, You ready an action, but you write it down and don't tell the players what the trigger is until after it's been triggered.

DM: "Stabbitha the halfling barbarian, playfully skips forward 2 and... *scribble scribble, flip note upside down* casually resting one hand on her dagger's hilt, picking her teeth with the other, readying an action."
Player: "What is the trigger?"
DM: "On your turn, give me an insight (Moderate DC), streetwise (Moderate DC), or history (Hard DC) as a move action to either size up your opponent, recall something you may have overheard about how this opponent fights, or recall some piece of history of the fighting traditions of this arena or it's peoples. Beat the check, and i'll tell you his trigger."
Player: "How come I have to tell you my trigger then?"
DM: "If I want my guy to know what you've told me, I'm going to do the same thing. I need to know so I can be prepared to make a ruling."

 

[Water Bob]

I would roll init as soon as the gladiators came out, since both parties knew there'd be a fight in the arena.

I tend to agree.

For the standoff, if my players are smart, they move forward and ready "when an enemy comes within x, I charge".

That's an illegal move per RAW, though. You can't Ready a charge because when you Ready an action, the most you can move is 5'--and that's only if you didn't move at all when you were readying the action.

I would find a way to set up a pincer formation...

Only two combatants, one vs. the other.

They key to handling these standoffs, is the players tell you, the DM, thier readied action.

Or, you can write them down on a piece of paper so that the other doesn't hear. Still, most likely, they'll not move and ready an attack if the other charges. We're back to square one.

 

[jimmifett]

That's an illegal move per RAW, though. You can't Ready a charge because when you Ready an action, the most you can move is 5'--and that's only if you didn't move at all when you were readying the action.

Took me a moment to disengage 4e-isms from brain, ready a weapon against a charge should have given it away. Couldn't ready a charge anyway as it's a full round action.

In that case, as a DM, if I have a monster and a player in a gladitorial mexican standoff where neither are doing anything and the crowd of onlookers is getting bored, I introduce something new...

BBEG: "Smithers, release the hounds!"

Some lower level critters are released into the arena to add more excitement, splitting up and attacking both player and gladiator.

Now someone has to move, or stand there continuing to stare down the other guy while a starving beast makes a charge attack on your groin. Hell, i'd have released the hounds after one or two rounds anyway just to make things interesting, maybe letting others at the table each play a hound so they aren't bored.

Perfect scenario to import the minion concept from 4e in some fashion.

 

[delericho]

We had an interesting discussion come up during yesterday's game surround when it is appropriate to throw initiative.

I have my players roll initiative at the start of the session, and reroll at the end of each encounter. Cuts down on rolls at the start of combat, and also allows a more 'natural' shift from 'roleplaying' to 'combat' mode.

To my thinking, the combat started as soon as the two gladitors entered the combat space ready to fight.

In this way, my player thinks "initiative can't be stolen by using the charge".

So, you tell me. I think both sides have a strong argument. On which side does your opinion lay?

In this instance, I agree with your player. To me, combat starts when the first 'combat action' is declared. This is typically an attack, but also includes spellcasting, or even an attempt to flee.

As soon as that happens, initiative order applies.

So, in the example of the gladiatorial combat, I would describe the two characters circling warily, until eventually one of them declares a charge (the first 'combat action'). At that point, the character who won initiative gets to act.

Note that if that character takes an action that negates the charge (eg he moves out of range), then the loser of initiative gets to change his action - he doesn't lose his turn because of this.

What constitutes a 'combat action'? To put it simply: I make a ruling. Fortunately, my players generally trust me not to screw them over.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's an illegal move per RAW, though. You can't Ready a charge because when you Ready an action, the most you can move is 5'--and that's only if you didn't move at all when you were readying the action.

Well, there's no reason you couldn't ready a move. Ready is a standard action that lets you perform any other standard, move, or swift (depending on the variation of the ruleset you are using).

"I ready an action to retreat if an enemy comes within 10' of me" is a perfectly fine readied action.

The reason you can't ready a charge is because charge is a full-round action (most of the time). Zombies, on the other hand, can almost always ready a charge.

 

[Sunseeker]

IMO, init would be rolled upon entering the arena. No prancing about it with weird "well we'll flip a coin when X happens", X could never happen.

The best bet is for players to ready an action for when the other makes their move. A readied move action is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

Yes, by nature of initiative SOMEONE is going to "lose" their first attack.