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When does D&D stop being D&D?

ComradeGnull

First Post
Race, class, level. Level-based advancement (..e, you get better at everything when you get better at anything). Six ability scores with humans typically in the 3-18 range (adding a high end for monsters and gods is fine with me). The nine alignments. Rolling a d20 as a core resolution mechanic. Hit points.

Save vs. rod/breath weapon/whatever always seemed cobbled together to me- you would read a description of some random effect in an adventure and then be told 'save vs. wand for half damage'- from some acid falling out of the walls or something. Why save vs. wand? Because that one had the numerical progression that best matched the chance of saving that the designer wanted for that effect...

Skills a la 3/4e & Pathfinder are uniformly better than the NWP system. I was just the other day looking through a big collection of 2e books (the edition I grew up playing), and every time I hit a Non-weapon Proficiency section, I just found myself thinking "wow, this is rubbish". Even the rules in the core book are goofy in terms of what requires two slots, which proficiencies have inexplicable penalties applied to them, proficiencies that cover way too much or too little content... etc.

Healing surges, to me, were an alternative healing mechanic introduced and made core in 4e. I have no problem with them being an option, but I also have no problem with them going away entirely.

Percentile dice... their application was always nichey. You can still use them for any 'Random xxx' table in the world, but honestly D&D feels more D&D-like without them. I always wondered why Thief skills had percentile rolls, but no other ability check did. It felt bolted on from another system.

Why do people want to change things? Because everyone's view of what is D&D is slightly different, and everyone thinks that changing a few things would make it their own personal Platonic ideal of what D&D is. Everyone has something where they think 'this doesn't fit with what D&D is'. These attempts at changing the core of the game are just attempts at making D&D more perfectly D&D-like, for varying personal values of what is D&D.
 

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I ran a game with a homebrew classless system that was rejiggered from 4e, set in a Stone Age world that did not use the core cosmology. The PCs were a mindwiping necromancer, a teleporting stoneshaper, a martial artist who could rip out your soul, an earth elemental who fought with a maul, and a pyromaniac woodsman. Everyone but the elemental was 'human.'

We would discuss the game as "are you going to make it to D&D this Friday," because it had an adventuring party made up of weird people, and we rolled d20s to hit people's AC (and other defenses). Stats were 3 to 18. People got better by level, in the form of more HP and more feats. But HP healed fully after a short rest, and there was a wound system if you got reduced below 0 HP; wounds took longer to heal.

However, magic was entirely at-will, with boosts that you could recharge during the course of combat. Powerful magic required a 'power source,' sorta like ritual components, but no one had money, so finding 'mana' for a ritual was an adventure in itself. Combat tricks were based on feats, and our martial artist would often grapple and use clinching kickboxing moves against, like, ogres and sabertooth tigers.

What I'm saying is, the semiosphere of the term "Dungeons & Dragons" is pretty broad for me. Others might have a narrower definition.
 
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Tallifer

Hero
Dungeons & Dragons is fantasy roleplaying. When someone asks me what I plan to do on the weekend, I reply, "I will play Dungeons & Dragons with some friends." They always understand that no matter what their background is. If I said Pathfinder or Microlite or Labyrinth Lord, I would immediately have to explain, "Basically, Dungeons & Dragons."

Only when I play Call of Cthulhu or another non-fantasy roleplaying game does the explanation become more difficult.

Furthermore when I play Runequest, Rolemaster, Pendragon, Powers & Perils, AD&D, the Fourth Edition or Pathfinder, it always feels like D&D. Murderous hoboes looting the world or shining knights errant righting wrongs. It seems like fifty feet of rope, a sword and a backpack are de rigeur.

Now obviously the more Old School the game, the more like the early 1980s it feels, but that does not make it more D&D, just more reminiscent of my youth.
 


Mishihari Lord

First Post
For me, it's not a question of which design elements or sacred cows it contains. The relevant question is "How hard is it for me to learn?"

I started in 1980 with basic. I switched to AD&D and was able to start playing immediately, just referring to the rules for reference. (Eventually I read the whole thing) Switching to 2E was trivial. 3E was a bit more of a jump. But each time I was able to play immediately with just a quick scan of the rules, learning the finer points as I went along. Then I read the 4E books in depth and realized that I still didn't know it well enough to play the game. So 4E is the first edition that's not D&D to me.

So my criterion is "Since I know how to play D&D, can I just pick this up and go?" If the answer is no, then it's not D&D to me.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I like percentile dice, but they were never used for any major mechanics I can think of. Okay, magic resistance, but the d20 just seems like a refinement. Random tables should be percentile, though.
Resurrection survival. System shock. Bend bars-lift gates. Thief abilities. Exceptional strength. Chance to cast spell off scroll when it's beyond your usual ability. Various Monk abilities e.g. surprise. Chance to be psionic. Etc.

Lan-"and the first three of those are well worth bringing back into 5e directly in their 1e form"-efan
 

PinkRose

Explorer
@Lanefan , STR 18/90 (because 18/99 would be cheating). That's quality D&D right there.

@RangerWickett , but don't you feel in your DM heart of hearts that you were playing a specific fantasy roleplaying game that wasn't D&D? Aren't there some things that make it D&D? What you described could be made with a different system, yes? Because technically, it was your own system.

If I said "I love baseball, but only when we dribble, don't wear gloves, and instead of bats we shoot it at a basket. THAT's BASEBALL to me!"
Is that really still baseball?

Is D&D just a fantasy RPG no matter what rules there are?
 
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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
It's honestly not a question I'm too interested in the answer to. I don't judge a game based on fidelity to its precursors. I judge it based on its ability to deliver a worthwhile play experience. Of course I also like Mongoose Runequest but not Classic Runequest, and New World of Darkness but not classic Vampire.
 
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n00bdragon

First Post
d&d started out emulating the broader fantasy genre (very broad, as they included hp lovecraft among their influences), and failed to capture it in a number of ways. It then rested on it's early success for 25 years or so, and that flawed genre-emulation because a sub-genre all it's own. D&d went from a poor simulation of fantasy, to a perfect simulation of itself, in a way.

qfe
 

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