D&D 5E When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?

[The Crimson Binome]

What monsters in the Monster Manual do actually work really well for the Epic Slugfest final fight?

From what I recall, the Tarrasque can last four or five rounds, depending on party composition. A kraken should also be good for three or four rounds.

Titans work better in pairs. A single titan will usually go down before three rounds, but two of them might have a chance if they can focus fire the healer on the first two rounds.

 

[Barolo]

He can be like a mix of Spiderman, Predator and Casper if you want to use him that way, instead of a war it is a hunt where players end dying.

Yeah, pretty awesome for a special Halloween module! You can even repeat the experience several times with your players throughout the years, as the adventure encounters can be shuffled and mixed by the Tarokka, see how far they can advance. You can even add their previous characters' names to the cemetery tombs, as mementos!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I don't think anything less than a well-prepared Lich or other spellcasting NPC could do it without minions, but what monsters do we have who can stand next to the party and have the staying power to fight them for 3 or more rounds?

Any dragon with at least 2nd level spells. Darkness (+blindsight because dragon) and Shield plus the dragon chassis makes for a wonderfully tough slugger. Give it a few more levels (e.g. Dragon Sorc 9 for Counterspell V in lieu of Shield) if you want something even more impressive.

For what it's worth, my crude simulation of 4 moderately-optimized 17th level Eldritch Knights (Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter, no magic weapons) vs. an adult red dragon using these slugging tactics indicates that the dragon outright wins about 75% of the time, with only 1-2 PCs surviving on average the other 25% of the time:

Rupert Grint the the Archer and Elias the the Archer and John the the Archer and Katie the the Archer win 23 out of 100 matches against Falgavarnon the the Red, with 1.65 members still alive on average

20th level PCs with +2 magic weapons and more optimization (Lucky feat for attacking) win more often, 100 out of 100 matches, usually not even losing a PC. (20th level without Lucky and without magic weapons wins 98% of the time, losing 1 PC on average.) But against an Ancient Red with the exact same tactics and magic, they win only ~9 out of 100 matches, with only 1 or 2 PCs surviving even when they do win. That's 91% TPK.

Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer win 9 out of 100 matches against Gartuoloth the the Ancient Red, with 1.33 members still alive on average

Edit: BTW, in both cases (adult red vs. 17th level party, and ancient red vs. 20th level party), a typical fight seems to last about 9 rounds.

Counter-tactics are possible, such as Dispelling the Darkness (or just pre-casting True Sight on everyone) and then also Counterspelling the dragon's Shield spells, which swings the odds back in the PCs' favor. But of course real PC parties won't have four (!) ranged-optimized 20th level fighters in the party. And of course the dragon will probably be using more sophisticated tactics than just Darkness + Shield.

But the point is made: adding spellcasting to dragons makes them more than capable of standing up to PCs in a fair fight, to the tune of 92% TPK against an optimized party.

Code is here: https://repl.it/EnFq/26

 

[Chaosmancer]

That is dang scary and impressive. This is the kind of thing that gets a monsters name on the title of a game

 

[Charles Rampant]

I'd like to avoid handing a whole class's levels of features. For the Dragons, what spells would you add in the form of 'innate spellcasting', [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]? I understand that the following are useful:

Freedom of Movement
Shield
Counterspell
Invisibility (?)
Darkness (?)
Haste (?)
Absorb Elements (?)

But what else would you go for? I've got a semi-divine (daughter of Niddhog) Ancient Red Dragon as the effective End Boss of my campaign - the players are 16th level, and actively planning an assassination run on her at some point. I was thinking of just lightly altering Tiamat's statblock (i.e. ignore all the non-fire heads), in order to ensure an appropriate level of insanity, but adding enough spells to the Ancient Red might be another option.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Critical Role used Dispel Magic quite well.

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'd like to avoid handing a whole class's levels of features. For the Dragons, what spells would you add in the form of 'innate spellcasting', @Hemlock? I understand that the following are useful:

Freedom of Movement
Shield
Counterspell
Invisibility (?)
Darkness (?)
Haste (?)
Absorb Elements (?)

But what else would you go for? I've got a semi-divine (daughter of Niddhog) Ancient Red Dragon as the effective End Boss of my campaign - the players are 16th level, and actively planning an assassination run on her at some point. I was thinking of just lightly altering Tiamat's statblock (i.e. ignore all the non-fire heads), in order to ensure an appropriate level of insanity, but adding enough spells to the Ancient Red might be another option.

Since you're asking me, I just hand out between 1 and 19 levels of Dragon Sorcerer on a case-by-case basis to pretty much any dragon older than Wyrmling. (Except I don't hand out ASIs--I just handwave/assume those are already factored into dragon age categories.) It's 100% thematic. If having a little bit of dragon blood turns you into a magical spellcaster, having 100% dragon blood sure ought to turn you into a magical spellcaster too.

The problem with "Innate Spellcasting", assuming you're referring to the MM variant, is that the dragon (inexplicably) can't cast any spell more than once. So you can't, for example, combine Darkness with Shield spells, because you can't get more than one Shield spell by MM rules. I find this bizarre and unaesthetic, and it's one of the reasons I wouldn't go down that road. But if you insist, you could get a little bit of mileage out of just Darkness (or Greater Invisibility), a single Counterspell, and a single Shield spell. Dimension Door isn't bad either, although it's better for a Dragon Sorc who can Quicken it.

I favor spellcasting over brute force (upping the stats to match Tiamat) because there's more room for counterplay. If the dragon is tough because it has ten thousand HP, there's not much the players can do in terms of counterplay to the stat inflation--they just have to chew through the HP the hard way. But if the dragon is tough due to Darkness/Greater Invisibility and Shield spells, then they can Dispel or True Seeing the Darkness, and then Counterspell the Shield, leading to a much softer dragon. It gives the dragon an interesting vulnerability that you don't get out of pure stat inflation, which always rewards planning and reconnaissance. I find that cool. I don't know how you and your players feel about play/counterplay, but it's something to think about anyway.

 

[Charles Rampant]

Can't you give multiple uses of a spell? I mean, I'm just saying that it seems extreme to juggle full PC rules for the sake of six spells...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Can't you give multiple uses of a spell? I mean, I'm just saying that it seems extreme to juggle full PC rules for the sake of six spells...

Huh. It seems simple enough to me[1], but of course you can simplify further if you like. Even if you do make the Dragon a Dragon Sorcerer 5, you can always simplify, e.g. by only allocating two spells and just saying "the other spells aren't important and won't be used during this combat."

I allow the same thing for PCs BTW, especially for new players. "You know two languages besides Ermorian (Common) but we don't have to work that out now. When something comes up and you decide you want to speak that language, let me know. Until then it's a wildcard. Okay, ready to start?"

[1] Here's an example stat block: "Falgavarnothin, young blue dragon, Blue Dragon Sorcerer 3. HP 152, spell points 14. Darkness, Shield, Misty Step, Invisibility; Quickened, Subtle." Simple. For a dumb dragon like an adult white I might likewise make him only a Dragon Sorc 3-4. More impressive dragons will have more impressive and deeply-thought-out spellcasting capabilities, but either way I'll be putting a whole lot more effort and thought into the dragon's social relationships and mapping out his physical territory/lair than into his combat stats. Spending fifteen minutes on his spellcasting isn't much if I'm already spending a week and a half planning his alliances.

 

[Gadget]

I'm not as skilled a DM as some here, but I'm also not a fan of layering PC levels on top of Monsters, for the most part. I remember certain previous edition's Dragons became, basically, spell casters in scales instead of robes to be challenging. That being said, Dragon's are innately magical creatures, and giving them appropriate abilities and powers, cribbed from spells and feats in the PHB, is certainly appropriate IMHO.

For instance, that Ancient Red might have an innate Fire Shield (warm version) like ability due to the massive heat and flames it radiates. The dragon's gaze is dangerous, as it acts like Hypnotic Pattern to those who meet it. Those who fall under the effect of the Dragon Gaze are susceptible to the Dragon Sickness (Suggestion, Confusion, Crown of Madness: take your pick). He can use his wings and heat to manipulate the air currents (Wind Wall, with a larger area). "My Wings: A Hurricane!" At his command, the ground around the lair explodes into rock and magma (Erupting Earth). And of course, when he becomes really enraged (half hit points?), he flies into a frenzy of death (Haste).

That is just spit balling off the top of my head, but is more aesthetically pleasing to me. I probably wouldn't want to use all of those abilities, or at least tweak and refine them some, but that is the kernel of the idea.