When PCs break the law

[Deimodius]

If this topic has already been covered, I would be much obliged if someone could point me in the right direction.

if not...

I am currently DMing the AoW adventure path, and though the PCs have not _really_ run afoul of the law yet, the _players_ have a habit of it in previous games, and it always stymies me. I've explained the way i see alignments working in my games, and that in general if you are lawful or good, you should probably obey the law.

But what is a DM to do when a lawful or good PC breaks the law and refuses to surrender to the authorities when they come to arrest him/her? When they get to higher levels this becomes a particular problem given the usual class and levels of the average town militia/sheriff.

I guess the authorities could hire another party of equivalent level adventures as bounty hunters, or decree that no business in town can sell to, or buy from them transgressor, but that I think just sort of exacerbates the problem with some PCs.

So, how do you get it across to the _players_ that hey are not free to willy-nilly break the law (if they are lawful and/or good) with no consequences?

 

[SavageRobby]

Lawful Good characters that repeatedly break the law and/or refuse to submit to the proper authorities should end up shifting alignment - voluntarily or not. The only exception I can think of is if the laws they're are breaking are unjust, but even then, they should be working towards changing them, not breaking them willy-nilly. (Think Robin Hood.) It also depends on the laws they're breaking. Not paying oppressive taxes is a lot different than killing and stealing, for example.

Again, depending on their crimes, characters will also get a reputation for that sort of thing ("Uh oh, here comes the notorious Silver Arrows. Close the gates!") and bad things will happen. Law abiding citizens will shun them, towns will close their gates, rewards will be posted, and in big cities, where there are bigger fish than the PCs, they will get dealt with.


And ultimately, if you have players that totally disregard their character's alignment, think they can break the laws with no consequences, and if you think the logical consequences will "exacerbate the problem", maybe you need more mature players. Or perhaps they should just play neutral or evil characters, and be done with it.

 

[frankthedm]

Bounty on thier heads and no one will barter / trade / sell them magic items.

 

[Oryan77]

I tell the players once if I think their actions are against their alignment. If I think their PC shouldn't be breaking the law because of their alignment, I mention in but I still let them do what they want to do. A good guy can still make a mistake in his life that he regrets. I don't think one incident is going to turn him into a bad guy.

If it happens again though, and becomes a normal reaction for that PC, then I'll change his alignment and let the player know what happened.

The argument at my table is that a "good" alignment can still break the law if he thinks it's for the right cause. Only a "lawful" alignment is never allowed to break the law.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Personally, I'd take their character sheet, erase their old alignment and replace it what I felt was best. If that impacts their character's ability to do stuff (like a monk or a paladin), that's their fault.

Giving them a negative rep can go a long, long way. I recommend giving this a try. Don't use mercs, use an adventuring party who saw their wanted posters on a tavern door. Maybe make the adventurers include a vampire and drop the players down a level or two.

Ultimately, I have to agree with SavageRobby and find yourself some more mature players.

 

[Deimodius]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think perhaps I may have mis-characterized it a little. Maturity is _not_ the problem, rather it is the mind set that "We are the heroes of the game, we can do anything". I think it's something that is experienced in a lot of games.

There were two former players who were fairly bad for doing it, though, and they don't play in our group any more.

It's more of a general "How do you approach the application of the law to PCs" question.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

My take is that breaking the law is the perfect example of a self scaling encounter. Work out in your own head what resources "the law" has to draw on, both standard and special request. Then bring those resources to bear in whatever quantity the PC's demonstrated power level requires. If they run, the law won't necessarily chase, depending on the crimes in question, but if they kill an officer of the law or attempt to hang around and flaunt their superiority to the law, by all means bring the hammer down.

In fairness, it's also a good idea to give some in character info when the law breaking situation starts - "Your characters would realize that even though this is a simple watchman trying to arrest you, he represents the power of the sherrif, who is an agent of the council, who govern the town on behalf of the Duke, who is given his rule by the King - and no one in that chain can afford to let some adventurers openly put themselves above the law." Also give some wiggle room for them to get out of normal penalties by doing a favor for the council, good diplomacy, etc.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

So, how do you get it across to the _players_ that hey are not free to willy-nilly break the law (if they are lawful and/or good) with no consequences?

For the most part reinforcing what was already said:

1. Discuss this with the players out of game. If in your game world, Lawful means no breaking any laws then make sure the players understand that. If Good means only with a "good" reason, make sure the players understand what some of those reasons could be.

2. In game, have the authorities outlaw them. In traditional societies, an outlaw can be cheated, enslaved, tortured, maimed, and/or killed without recourse. The outlaw is literally outside of the law. This ruins the character's reputation and standing within that society and it taint's the character's family as well. The local authorities may declare that anyone who does business with an outlaw will be punnished. The local church may excommunicate (cast out of the religious community) the outlaws thus denying them all benefits of that religion (goodbye cleric spells, and cleric & paladin supernatural & spell-like abilities). Word will spread from town to town and various crimes will be ascribed to them regardless of their actual guilt (this is how notorious repuations grow). If their transgressions are great enough, the local clergy may preach against them and/or curse them. And finally bounties may be placed on their heads.

Many times in D&D we forget that the PCs are celebrities and that word of their exploits (good or bad) spread from town to town.

 

[dmccoy1693]

EDIT:

In fairness, it's also a good idea to give some in character info when the law breaking situation starts - "Your characters would realize that even though this is a simple watchman trying to arrest you, he represents the power of the sherrif, who is an agent of the council, who govern the town on behalf of the Duke, who is given his rule by the King - and no one in that chain can afford to let some adventurers openly put themselves above the law." Also give some wiggle room for them to get out of normal penalties by doing a favor for the council, good diplomacy, etc.

1. Discuss this with the players out of game.

I like these better then what I originally said.

 

[sniffles]

For the most part reinforcing what was already said:

1. Discuss this with the players out of game. If in your game world, Lawful means no breaking any laws then make sure the players understand that. If Good means only with a "good" reason, make sure the players understand what some of those reasons could be.

2. In game, have the authorities outlaw them. In traditional societies, an outlaw can be cheated, enslaved, tortured, maimed, and/or killed without recourse. The outlaw is literally outside of the law. This ruins the character's reputation and standing within that society and it taint's the character's family as well. The local authorities may declare that anyone who does business with an outlaw will be punnished. The local church may excommunicate (cast out of the religious community) the outlaws thus denying them all benefits of that religion (goodbye cleric spells, and cleric & paladin supernatural & spell-like abilities). Word will spread from town to town and various crimes will be ascribed to them regardless of their actual guilt (this is how notorious repuations grow). If their transgressions are great enough, the local clergy may preach against them and/or curse them. And finally bounties may be placed on their heads.

Many times in D&D we forget that the PCs are celebrities and that word of their exploits (good or bad) spread from town to town.

These are all good points.

Also remember that medieval-type societies such as are represented in most RPGs don't have the same legal system as today's legal system. There was no "innocent until proven guilty" rule, no requirement for a court trial, nor any requirements for evidence.

Don't let your players expect that the city militia will act like modern police. If the militia think the PCs have done something wrong, they can beat the PCs up. If the PCs are too strong for them, they might gang up on the PCs at night or when they're separated, or bully the townsfolk into refusing to do business with the PCs.