D&D 5E When PCs Burst into a Room of Unsuspecting Enemies

[Thyrwyn]

"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other." - pg 185 PHB

So no stealth rolls = no surprise

The rule does not say "if neither side makes a Stealth check." The party has effectively declared their intention to be stealthy when they decided to burst in before the occupants knew they were there. The onus is on the DM to decide if a Stealth check is needed. In this case, the OP decided it wasn't: he decided that the group inside the room hadn't noticed the party. Could he have called for Stealth check? Sure, but there is nothing wrong with deciding it isn't necessary, either. In effect, the DM decided the check succeeded. Kudos, I would have done so, too.

"We burst in and try to surprise them" should be enough to invoke the surprise rules. Since the DM has already decided that one side has not noticed the other, the DM has already decided that Surprise applies.

 

[Nebulous]

The rule does not say "if neither side makes a Stealth check." The party has effectively declared their intention to be stealthy when they decided to burst in before the occupants knew they were there. The onus is on the DM to decide if a Stealth check is needed. In this case, the OP decided it wasn't: he decided that the group inside the room hadn't noticed the party. Could he have called for Stealth check? Sure, but there is nothing wrong with deciding it isn't necessary, either. In effect, the DM decided the check succeeded. Kudos, I would have done so, too.

"We burst in and try to surprise them" should be enough to invoke the surprise rules. Since the DM has already decided that one side has not noticed the other, the DM has already decided that Surprise applies.

There's also the possibility that someone outside a door, and then opening the door and coming in, does not instigate immediate suspicion. We don't know the exact circumstances of the layout, so having someone enter (unfortunately for the bad guys, people with swords to kill them) might not be unusual at all.

 

[ThePaladinWay]

I'm learning a lot from your different perspectives. Thank you all for sharing. I'd love to hear from more, as well as any more thoughts from those who have already assisted me.

To clarify my original post, I was taking a specific situation and trying to understand the generalized way to handle similar situations. I was assuming successful stealth or at least a quiet approach to get to the door. (In the original specific case, a PC had succeeded on a stealth check to listen in at a window. The PC's then approached the door quietly. I decided no stealth check needed for that. It was a bit more detailed/complicated than I describe, but this is the short version.)

In general, I'm trying to get a better understanding of the sequence of play when PCs try to enter a room filled with enemies under the 5E initiative rules, when the enemies don't know the PCs are there. And Question 2 was aimed at where to position everyone when the enemies win initiative if the PCs "enter the room".

 

[Thyrwyn]

I would start the party outside the room. Since the people inside the room are surprised, it does not matter if rolled higher initiative since they are unable to act. The PCs get their first turn to move in and attack ( or whatever ), then we move on to the second round.

My reasoning for starting the PCs outside the room is that that is when the 'fight' starts - when the bad guys first realize "oh, crap!", and the good guys start declaring actions, etc... That's the point at which the order of events starts to matter.

 

[Joe Liker]

^ Exactly what [MENTION=12354]Thyrwyn[/MENTION] said.

Combat begins when one side takes a hostile action. In this case, the first hostile action is opening the door with murderous intent.

 

[Roger]

Background: PCs know enemies are in a room. Enemies are unaware of PCs and not even ready for combat (playing cards, cooking, arguing, etc). PCs decide to burst into the room and attack suddenly, like a SEAL team. Not using stealth, so technically no surprise.

Hmmm. I'd probably give the enemies the stunned condition for a round, then have them roll initiative and proceed.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[keterys]

Hmmm. I'd probably give the enemies the stunned condition for a round, then have them roll initiative and proceed.



Cheers,
Roger

Fwiw, this is almost exactly how the actual surprise rules work.

 

[Psikerlord#]

If they dont make a stealth check I assume the monsters hear them coming. So normal initiative. Otherwise though I would suggest giving the PCs adv on initiative check. But it depends on the situation, need to assess on a case by case basis.

 

[SirAntoine]

If you feel a roll isn't necessary, one isn't necessary. You are the DM, and to quote Harold Johnson, one of the founding fathers of the game, "You only use rules when common sense doesn't prevail."

 

[Riley37]

I would start the PCs on their side of the door. Not for mechanical reasons, nor for fairness.
My reason: which of them goes first, and where they go within the new-to-them room, is a choice.

There's no particular reason or advantage to the DM deciding which PC enters first, or whether their next step is right, left or forwards. There's almost always better or worse choices they can make. So let players choose!
They might deliberately leave one person in the doorway, or one just outside, leaning to snipe from cover. (Especially if that last one is maintaining Concentration on an important buff.)

I would also invite a free-action Perception check from each PC rushing into new territory, and I'd only place figures for the room's residents when a PC passed a DC 10 Wis (Perception) check. Adrenaline rush is great for acting quickly; it's horrible for comprehensive examination, and for peripheral vision.