when the DM is in fact wrong

[JacktheRabbit]

The problem is though that too many people on this board and too many DM's in general take the statement below as meanign they are god and the players are nobodies and everything revolves around the DM.

I have the one thing to say. He is the DM.

 

[Ashtal]

I don't think many would say that the world revolves around the GM, but it is his or her game. And unless you are willing to personally step up to the plate and the rest of the group decides this is a good thing, then the only thing you can do to protest what you feel to be consistantly poor GMing is to vote with your feet and leave the group.

As others have said, it is about your comfort levels. If the disagreement has a minimal effect on the game and you are still, for the most part, enjoying yourself, stay.

If the decision(s) have huge consequences on the nature of the game, or if you feel the GM has gone past the realms of fairness, then it may be time to walk.

But certainly talking with the GM, in an open, honest dialogue that is focused on making the game better, overall, and not trying to settle who is right, wrong, or whatever, is the first step. As always, try to understand the GM's point of view. There may be issues involved that you aren't party to, that would make everything clear but may ruin an element of the game. Unless the grievance is really...greivous......it's probably best to stay put and try to be a positive contributer to the game.

 

[EOL]

The way I see it is this. Yes the DM is the final arbiter of what happens in the game, but he has to compete for players. If a DM doesn't provide something that the players are looking for, then they're not going to play. In the most radical situations (which I have seen) the players all essentially rise up tell the person he can't be the DM anymore (because he's no good at it) and some other player takes the role of the DM.


This is how it should work. Being the DM is a sort of constitutional monarchy yeah you have basically unlimited powers but if you don't use them in a way that makes everyone happy you're going to be dethroned.

So the question I have is what do the other players think? I'm in a situation right now as a DM where I either make one person happy and all the other people less happy or I make the other people happy and the one person really unhappy. What should I do? Well I've decided to play in such a way to make the greatest number happy. Now if the other person decides to leave my game I totally understand and respect that.

So if your DM does things the way you want him to is it going to make everyone but you unhappy? Or would everyone be happier if he changed his behavior. That is a powerful argument.

 

[Numion]

The problem is though that too many people on this board and too many DM's in general take the statement below as meanign they are god and the players are nobodies and everything revolves around the DM.

That's because everything does revolve around the GM. Ah, just kidding

But remember though that even if people tend to bitch about their DMs a lot, a bad DM call is better than no DM call at all. Actually, people like to bitch about everything on the Internet. You'd think that the world is pretty awful place if your only source of information was the 'net. Everything is broken / got the shaft.

 

[Falcon]

I don't know if "that's how it is" is an adequate explanation. If I make a change or a ruling, I generally try to explain it, and when I am doing so, my focus is on whether or not this will make the game better for everyone, including myself. I also always ask for feedback on such things, and for feedback in general. This helps to short-circuit some long-simmering annoyance that can suddenly boil over.

I think the best thing to do is talk about it outside the gaming context, and DISCUSS both sides of the issue, with an intent to understand the whys, wherefores, etc., and more about what works for both of you. Insisting on being right, either as player or DM, is not a good stance to take when attempting to resolve something.

That being said, if the campaign is working for most people, then this may be a stylistic/irreconcilable difference, and you should ask yourself if it worth spending so much time in a leisure activity that is a source of irritation for you.

A player recently left my campaign because of some similar issues. I told him he was not obligated to spend time doing something he wasn't enjoying. We were both fine with this, and my campaign is moving right along. This point was reached after a long, sometimes difficult conversation, however, and the reason it was difficult was that we both are friends also.

As a DM, I can do what I can, and I do have my style and do my best to keep everything interesting and engaging for everyone, but I can only do so much, and I also want to derive some enjoyment from the activity that I devote so much time to.

Reading Robin D. Laws' book on good GameMastering has been really helpful in this regard.

 

[Henry]

In our group, we have multiple players who GM from time to time, and we shift around in the group "round robin" style. That way, if one person doesn't like one GM's style, then next week or a few weeks later, another GM (perhaps even themselves) gets a shot. We are currently playing three different campaigns: Player #1's "Flat Earth" Campaign (due for a climax any time now!), Player #2's Forgotten Realms game (more of a "learning to DM" campaign, but quite fun!), and my d20 "Star Wars New Jedi Order" Game. We typically rotate every one to three weeks, and no one gets bored with any one type of game.

One Difference - we rarely change the game rules. However, even if one campaign in the bunch was very heavily modified and restrictive, it only comes around once a month. If everyone is enjoying the current game, we keep going until the GM says he needs a rest break to plan ahead.

 

[Sodalis]

I am having to deal with that problem right now.

[background info]
a couple weeks ago, I was DMing, and my point is to make like each player is contributing the way they want to. The rogue can gather info, duelist can fight, sorc can blast and cleric... anything she wants.

My Dming session ended, and I passed it back to the other DM who continued his story.

We added another player who decided to be a fighter- and it was his first session. We chased a caravan to a cave where it was stashed and we snuck around to look for it. All of a sudden, we were ambushed and hit from a couple different angles. (no problem yet)

The fighter rushed in and was hit from behind by a raging, charging barbarian with a scythe. no problem yet? but he was specifically geared to deal massive damage in one hit- and have no survivability afterwards. (AC 14, rhino hide, feats to max out charge) he dealt 130 pts of damage (killing the fighter instantly)and then was standing there to die...

then, a sorc (the source for our campaign adv) told us to go to an alternate plane to stop an evil mage from constructing a special armor. we went and got jakked- we were ambushed at night, withno visibility and the spiders had str drain. three guys fell paralyzed and the sorc (fly) barely escaped with 2 str left.
[/Background]

right afterwards, i wrote him to tell him that the barb trick was terrible and unfair. his defense was "you are mad cause you don't have anyone that can do that." but that was not my point. i have a problem with him doing things that strip the players of control- or at least a save. He would railroad us into the adv- saying that if we don not take the adv- we can bascally go home- and then jakkin us with an ambush. On top of that- he gives us no time to prepare.

His adv are always rushed (if you do not do this,the forces of evil will rule the world in two days) forcing us to make rushed decisions and no time to properly gaher info. and when i bring it to his attention, he would say that I am bitching at every call-
but i just have a problem with the way he DMs

I even asked him "what is this plane like?" and "what do we need to prepare for?" and he said "same as material, but with a blueish glow." when we got there, there was supernatural darkness that we could not see past 5'- even with darkvision and we were lost in the plane with no information on what to do.

what all this leads to is i am going to attend one last session. if he still does this, then I will just tell him that I am not having funa dn then leaving. He is a real good friend, but the way he DMs is not the way I would like to play. I want to have a game where the character decides his fate- and not the Dm who says, "if you don't do this, go home cause you dont have anythign else to do..."

 

[el Voz]

Rushing the adventures in my opinion is fine. In fact I do it all the time. But execution is the tricky part.

What happens if the PCs delay? Will your characters die? Will you even notice? Will the DM be ticked and have revenge?

I set my xps on time. Bonus xps if they are fast, fewer xps if they are slow.

There should also be a valid reason that the PCs understand that rushes them with no prep time. But the DM should have some minimum qualifications when he preses the PCs for time. If they do not match it, than the PCs should be allowed to make the necessary arangements.

 

[Hadraniel]

"That's how it is" is not a good enough answer I would make them justify themselves. Some rules that may seem O' so great to a DM are really annoying for PCs. The game is for everyone to have fun not just one individual. If a rule change comes up think about the good and bad things about it. Can everyone comprimise or is it screwing the PCs over and not the NPCs? or is it great for the PCs and bad for the NPCs?

I have thought about leaving my current group, seems like stuff happens to our characters for no apparent reason and there is nothing we can do about it besides not adventure anymore. But the campaign was a lot of fun before recently, it was more of a choose your own adventure feel. Now it has a you lost this ability or this happens to your character and cannot get it fixed until the DM says you can. Makes you feel kinda like the DM just does what he pleases, kinda sucks.

Anyhow I would give it a few more sessions, that is what I am doing then if it continues to not be fun just stop playing.

 

[Sodalis]

el Voz
Rushing the adventures in my opinion is fine. In fact I do it all the time. But execution is the tricky part.

What happens if the PCs delay? Will your characters die? Will you even notice? Will the DM be ticked and have revenge?

I set my xps on time. Bonus xps if they are fast, fewer xps if they are slow.

There should also be a valid reason that the PCs understand that rushes them with no prep time. But the DM should have some minimum qualifications when he preses the PCs for time. If they do not match it, than the PCs should be allowed to make the necessary arangements.

the adv moves at a pace that is advantageous to teh DM.

Usual day in our adv is:
[dm] you wake up one morning, where are you?
[player]at the tavern (any other palcea nd we get left oput)
[dm] a guy walks in and asks if you can do this for him... (us)OK
[dm] it will take place tomorrow morning... (us)OK
[player]what if we decide not to take the job?
[DM]you can go home cause I dont have anything else for you to do...

after combat

[dm] you find out that this was just a precursor to your real task- which will take place tomorrow
[player] we go back to town and heal up

tomorrow
[dm] you attack the convoy and realise that the real threat will take place tomorrow
[us] we rest up and head out in teh morning

basically everything happens within one day of each other. that way, we have adequate time to rest- but never any time for preparations.

and if we don't take the mission, we WILL suffer horrible consequences. a couple sessions ago, he wanted us to stay and watch this city, because he was goign to attack it tomorrow- but did not give us any hints to do so- or any info while gathering it- even when I (barb/ rang)wanted to track the footsteps of giants 2 hours after they attacked (he said the snow covered them all up) and so we went back to our city to protect them. we came back to find the second city burned to the ground.

another thing is that he loves dragons. last time, we had to go against a red dragon. when asking the army what dragon is attackin, they did not know, even though their scouts knew that a massive army was on its way, and that there was a dragon flying along with them. Hmmmmm.

this sort of stuff happens alot. he claims that we have ample opportuinity to gather info,a nd prepare- but when we ask them, we get nothing. and then when i bring it to his attention, he says that i whine and bitch and moan too much-