D&D General When the fiction doesn't match the mechanics

[Ruin Explorer]

I absolutely love this idea nested in your post for situations like knife at victim's throat or 10 crossbows aimed at PC which tension in scenes like these are undone by the hit point mechanic.
I'm definitely going to incorporate something like this at my table going forward.

I'd be interested to see what mechanics you come up with.

WWN does the follow for stealth assassination-type stuff (I think it's okay to reproduce this, it's in the free version of WWN):

Execution Attacks

A target that is completely unaware of danger is vulnerable to a quick and bloody death, no matter how great their martial prowess or how thick their armor. An Execution Attack gives an assailant an opportunity to slay a foe with a single well-placed arrow or blade. Setting up such an attack requires a full minute of preparation. Archers, gunmen, and other ranged attackers must spend it judging distance, wind, and details of aim, while melee assassins must use it to drift up to the target and position themselves in the exact right place for the attack. Melee assassins must use a weapon for an Execution Attack, unless they have such special training as to make their unarmed attacks unusually lethal. If the target is spooked, the opportunity is lost. Once the preparation is complete, the assailant may use a Main Action to attack. The target’s Armor Class is irrelevant, assuming the attacker is using a weapon that can hurt the target. A melee Execution Attack will always hit. A ranged Execution Attack requires a Dex/Shoot skill check against a difficulty of 6 for a point-blank shot,8 for one at the weapon’s normal range, and 10 for a shot at extreme range. A Warrior can use their Veteran’s Luck ability with this skill check, but it only allows a reroll on a failed check rather than forcing an automatic hit. If the Execution Attack hits, the target must make an immediate Physical saving throw at a penalty equal to the attacker’s combat skill level. If they fail, they are Mortally Wounded on the spot, or knocked unconscious if the attacker was using a plausibly non-lethal weapon. If they succeed, the weapon still does its maximum damage. Attacking an unconscious or incapacitated target will always leave them Mortally Wounded.

TLDR - If you hang out for 1 minute getting ready to kill your target (unseen, undetected), you can make an attack that potentially one-shots them. There are some other mechanics that interact with this too (to make it easier or impossible against certain targets). I would personally consider reducing the 1 minute circumstantially and/or on a class-based basis.

 

[Voadam]

I certainly do.

I'll give you a perfect example. On my shelf, after I recently dug them out, stand Faith's and Avatars (2e) and Powers and Pantheons (2e). Now, these are THE go to resources for all things divine in the Forgotten Realms at the time (granted, they're a bit out of date now, of course). Both weigh in at 194 pages of very small, dense text. So, just shy of 400 pages of material.

Now I bought these in (... goes off to check ...) about 1996 or 1997. Give or take. So, they've been with me for just about 25 years.

In 25 years I've used a grand total of 4 pages out of these books. One page for my 2e priest of Kossuth, and 3 pages recently for my Candlekeep campaign where I used the Cloister of Saint Ramedar.

1% of the material in 25 years. Why in hell did I buy these books? Fun read? I guess so. Looking at it now, it's mostly forgettable. This was a total waste of money.

And these books are hardly alone in that.

I'm so over the idea of buying books just to have them sit on my shelf gathering dust. If I won't use at least 40% of the book, then it's a non-buy for me now. I simply have no interest in buying fantasy encyclopedias anymore. They're largely a waste of time.

I think percentage of use is the wrong way to look at it.

Did the use you got out of it add value to your games or enjoyment in reading it? Was that value worth the money spent on it and the time spent reading it?

If you played your 2e priest and got value from the info from the page on their Kossuth priesthood and god and religious organizations and religious values the religion express and enjoyed the non-cleric specific abilities of your class tuned to a specific theme then I can see valuing it even though it was one page out of 400.

If it was just using it as the page for the class mechanics and ignoring or rejecting all the descriptive elements on the other pages about Kossuth and his religious organization and the class turning out to not really be a value add for you over the standard 2e cleric and not enjoying the descriptive elements I can see considering it a waste of money.

I too got the books in the 90s. I have read them cover to cover, enjoyed them immensely, and have used the descriptive elements in my homebrew mashup campaign with the Faerunian pantheons as a few pantheons out of many in my setting with one PC going deep in one of the religious organizations as really significant in his 3e character's background and the book provided great inspiration and launching off points for both me and them. I used a bunch of Nobanion stuff as an element when I was running a Pathfinder 1e Reign of Winter campaign in my setting. I used a bit of Umberlee stuff as a recognized dark sea cult in my Freeport games in my setting. I have both a fantasy Egypt and fantasy Iraq/Mesopotamia areas of my setting so it was nice to have Mulhorandi and Unther pantheon information to draw on as resources as desired.

 

[overgeeked]

I think games try and serve more purposes than narrative and so elements can be designed for other purposes and not to serve the narrative.

For instance I think making combat elements work to make the mini game of combat at the table fun is not to serve the narrative of the game but to focus on game elements and participant fun.

Giving lots of character options for building a character of the same narrative concept multiple ways can be in service of the fun of character building and diversity of character mechanic styles at the table and accommodating different player mechanical preferences instead of serving the narrative.

Have you read about the MDA framework, a theory of video game design and aesthetics? It’s a really interesting setup.

 

[Voadam]

Have you read about the MDA framework, a theory of video game design and aesthetics? It’s a really interesting setup.

No. A lot of video game design such as microtransactions and designing to manipulate obsessive engagement depresses me. I am sure there is a lot of good design principles and discussions that would be applicable to TTRPGs but I spend my hobby time mostly on direct RPG stuff.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

You're welcome to see them that way.

It is really hard to see fictional worlds any other way. You are free to imagine whatever you want of course. But humans don’t have the capacity, yet, to be God. And that’s what it would take to truly develop a world devoid of narrative.

PS - I’m an atheist, in case that came across as proselytizing

 

[Neonchameleon]

Some part of hit points has always been meat. Gygax knew that, and so do you.

Yes. The final part. And Gygax was explicit that it was "preposterous" to state that hit points were entirely or even largely meat. To quote Gygax himself:

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain!

If hit points are not at or below zero any injury is automatically at most minor. Nicks, grazes, and relatively minor bruises. Which are partly meat. Just not very much meat. And I'm pretty sure you are well aware of this.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Really? I have several RPG core books and supplements that say otherwise. I don't buy it.

So do I. I've got GURPS books, WFRP books, Rolemaster books and even WoD books to name three off the top of my head. But those are different games - and all of them e.g. have penalties for being wounded and the first three even actualise the physical location of the wound. Meanwhile my D&D books are clear that hit points do not represent injury because that is not the type of game D&D has ever been. And I believe Hussar was talking about D&D here.

 

[Lanefan]

I'll give you a perfect example. On my shelf, after I recently dug them out, stand Faith's and Avatars (2e) and Powers and Pantheons (2e). Now, these are THE go to resources for all things divine in the Forgotten Realms at the time (granted, they're a bit out of date now, of course). Both weigh in at 194 pages of very small, dense text. So, just shy of 400 pages of material.

Now I bought these in (... goes off to check ...) about 1996 or 1997. Give or take. So, they've been with me for just about 25 years.

In 25 years I've used a grand total of 4 pages out of these books. One page for my 2e priest of Kossuth, and 3 pages recently for my Candlekeep campaign where I used the Cloister of Saint Ramedar.

1% of the material in 25 years. Why in hell did I buy these books? Fun read? I guess so. Looking at it now, it's mostly forgettable. This was a total waste of money.

Most of the (many!) books on my shelves, both RPG and not, are ones I've only read once; and that goes back to some books I've had since I was a kid. I keep them mostly for the potential of reading them again (or, with the RPG ones, the potential of finding a use for them later); whether or not that potential is ever realized only time will tell.

As for the two specific FR deities books you list, I have both. I read through each when I first got them and swiped some good ideas; and have occasionally looked at them since when designing my own pantheons and-or running comparisons with how other settings do things.

I'm so over the idea of buying books just to have them sit on my shelf gathering dust. If I won't use at least 40% of the book, then it's a non-buy for me now.

Some of them also gather value along with the dust, says he with multiple copies of 1e's Deities and Demigods on the shelf...

 

[Lanefan]

If hit points are not at or below zero any injury is automatically at most minor. Nicks, grazes, and relatively minor bruises. Which are partly meat. Just not very much meat.

Completely agree. Good assessment. (though I'd still greatly prefer a wounds-vitality or body-fatigue system where the vitality/fatigue points are as you describe and the wounds/bodies are more meat-based, because I think the last few points above zero should be mostly meat; but that's a different crusade)

It's those who hold that those above-zero hit points have no meat element at all that annoy me.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Completely agree. Good assessment. (though I'd still greatly prefer a wounds-vitality or body-fatigue system where the vitality/fatigue points are as you describe and the wounds/bodies are more meat-based, because I think the last few points above zero should be mostly meat; but that's a different crusade)

It's those who hold that those above-zero hit points have no meat element at all that annoy me.

I have yet to see anyone argue this. Just that the primary component isn't and PCs don't get more banged up than protagonists in an action movie.