When the PCs Can Beat Everything

[Cabled]

Just something to keep in mind, and mull over. It's something most people, game designers included, underestimate, and that is the concept of attack density. The more attacks you're compressing into a given time frame, the better off you are unless the accuracy penalty is very detrimental...more than most games impose.

Even with nearly any penalty you choose, going from the 4 person baseline that 3e was developed with to 6 people, you've increased by 50% the number of attacks per round the party brings to bear...50% more chances to roll that 20...lots of extra flanking potential...more people left with openings when "per round" type defenses are overwhelmed. A well played group is more than the sum of its parts, and the sum increases more quickly for every extra person you add.

Take whatever formulas the designers give you for determing the ECL, toss'em out and start experimenting...only trial and error will show you the sweet spot to challenge them. To echo others here though, the best counter to attack density is opposing density, not more power. Send in more opponents, not tougher ones.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Practice.

I've run 8 PC's of 25th Level+ in both 2nd & 3rd edition. I've had things I was worried about a TPK get stomped in less than a round & a cakewalk nearly kill multiple PC's.

When you get above 4 PC's (or their items are above/below standard), the CR system really should be treated more like the 2nd ed MOnster XP.

Namely, CR defines the reward, gives some idea as to Monster Power & let the DM beware.

For 6 10th level Characters, here's my guidelines:

Keep with the same CR. Up HP to Max for d8 & below & 75% for d10 HD & up (For low HD/High CR, pump up the HP's). This will give some monsters a chance to survive the initial salvo.

Imp. Initiative. When you have a large party, a low Int can kill your challenge before it even gets to act.

Lots of foes over 1 big one. THink of it as concentrated Firepower, even a 100 HP creature won't survive a rd if everyone gangs up on it.

Lots of 'little' encounters. Plink em to death. Hit & run tatics can wear down a party.

The old 1 room. Rest. Next Room. Repeat. THis allows PC's to always be at full power when they fight.

 

[shilsen]

ACs are high mostly due to magic items, which were purchased legally with the standard wealth guidelines of 10th level. There is a good deal of min/maxing ... such as "if I wear X armor then I can have Y max Dex, then I will buy gloves of Dexterity Z so I will have Dex bonus Y." I think you get the idea. But, then again, I'm the same way when bringing in a character I haven't worked up from 1st level.

As noted above, their AC is high but not impossibly so. kenobi65 provided a CR 10 enemy with a +20 to hit. Another simple example of the same CR:

Hill giant Bbn3
BAB +12
Str 30, or 34 when raging
W. Focus
+1 greatsword

While raging, the guy's attacking at +25/20/15, doing 3d6+19 damage on a hit, and (with Improved Critical) threatening a crit on a 17-20. And this is with absolutely basic feats and equipment. Have two giants which have swigged potions of Bull's Strength and are flanking, and you've got attacks at +29/24/19. If you really want to crank things up, you could have CR 10 enemies who'll hit your PCs on a 2.

And the above is with a melee enemy. Those using ranged weaponry or spells could have an even easier time.

I am aware that summoning spells are full round actions. However, my opponents just can't get to the druid to stop him, not with 30 AC / 100 hp fighters and a nasty animal companion standing in the way.

None of the opponents you use ever have ranged weapons or spells?

I was not aware that Magic Circle Against Good/Evil would stop a druid's Nature's Summoning; I guess I just thought they had to be creatures summoned from an aligned plane.

And none of your players knew that either? The Magic Circle thing is really pretty basic, so now I'm wondering if part of your problem is that the players and you are actually using the rules wrong. Are you absolutely sure everything they're using is valid?

If this is true, that might help for an encounter, but I wouldn't want to do it every time.

Do your PCs ever meet enemies that know who they are? Anyone who knows what sort of abilities they have would be completely justified in using that as a tactic. It would certainly be a bad idea to use it all the time, but it could come up for some of the really relevant fights.

 

[Retreater]

And none of your players knew that either? The Magic Circle thing is really pretty basic, so now I'm wondering if part of your problem is that the players and you are actually using the rules wrong. Are you absolutely sure everything they're using is valid?

I knew it applied to fiendish/celestial, but didn't know it applied to all summoned creatures until just now. Still, as it's written, the druid could still surround the protected villain with summoned creatures, and the villain would either have to force the barrier or just stand there and be pummelled by spells.

None of the opponents you use ever have ranged weapons or spells?

I've tried to, but they're dead quicker than the melee brawler types. Essentially, any opponent lasts one round. That's it. So you can have a 1d8+5 damage for a longbow (which will probably miss the casters because of rows of melee fighters blocking the way), or you can try to throw a spell. But what can you do to stop the druid? Evard's Black Tentacles? He just polymorphs into a bird and flies away. Fireball? Yippee, 10d6 damage is a slap on the wrist, especially when your caster is dead the instant he becomes visible.

Do your PCs ever meet enemies that know who they are? Anyone who knows what sort of abilities they have would be completely justified in using that as a tactic.

None have yet survived to tell the tale.

I don't mean any offense by this, but your remark that AC 30 is "impossibly high" at 10th level indicates that you are not an optimizer. (An AC in the 50s can be attained at 6th level, if you optimize.)

No. I've been able to reach AC 30 at much lower levels than 10th, so I know it's possible. But sticking with the core rules, creating characters only with the wealth and equipment allotted without templates or monstrous races, AC 30 (unless you can explain otherwise) is about as good as it gets. Now there are circumstances, such as using combat expertise that may change this, but reasonable character creation using the PHB caps off around that level.

What "impossibly high" meant in my above post is that it's difficult to find creatures of appropriate CR that can hit about 50% of the time (that means they have a +20 or more to hit).

Have you tried throwing incorporeal undead at the party? Don't alert them to their presence, just have them wake up and start taking stat damage in the middle of the night, with no visible source. The undead remain underground, attacking from cover, and do this incessantly. Sure, they can levitate or whatever, but how many days can they keep it up for before exhaustion sets in? Their enemies never tire, never sleep, and return each time they are chased away. (Obviously this encounter needs to take place many days' travel from towns or aid, or it will be meaningless

I could completely wipe out the party with incorporeal undead, even those of a far lesser EL than the party. The cleric stinks at turning. Summoned nature's allies would be useless against them. I could negate all of that sweet armor bonus the party has. But unfortunately if I used that encounter, the players would think I was deliberately trying to kill their characters. It would be like throwing a tarrasque against them.

You guys have given some good advice about how to beef up encounters with templates and such. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to approach every encounter from scratch. I can't build up every rank and file member of a horde as powergaming as my players build up a single character.

I need an easy fix. And the easy fix could just be that I don't enjoy running "high level" and to restart the game at 1st.

Retreater

 

[Retreater]

Do You Think This Would Work As An Alternative?

Could this be a useful guide in planning encounters?

A creature's melee attack bonus is equal to the party's average AC minus 10. That would mean that if the party's average AC is 28, the monster hits on +18/+13/+8, or 50% of the time with its primary attack.

A creature's AC is equal to the party's average melee attack bonus plus 10. That would mean that if the party's average attack bonus is +18, the monster's AC is 28, so that 50% of the time the party is hitting.

Damage could be scaled based on how much damage the party could deal in a round.

While this wouldn't be playing d20 exactly by the rules, maybe this could approximate a decent challenge.

What do you think?

Retreater

 

[kenobi65]

I've tried to, but they're dead quicker than the melee brawler types. Essentially, any opponent lasts one round. That's it. So you can have a 1d8+5 damage for a longbow (which will probably miss the casters because of rows of melee fighters blocking the way)

I suspect you've never built an archer PC. An 11th level archery-style ranger has Improved Precise Shot. Which means he ignores everything short of total cover and total concealment, and is getting 4 shots a round with Rapid Shot.

or you can try to throw a spell. But what can you do to stop the druid? Evard's Black Tentacles? He just polymorphs into a bird and flies away. Fireball? Yippee, 10d6 damage is a slap on the wrist, especially when your caster is dead the instant he becomes visible.

Dust of Disappearance? Greater Invisibility? At that level, there's no reason you have to turn visible.

Yeah, 10d6 from a fireball, not necessarily deadly. Empower it. Maximize it. Dominate Person on their BDFs. Feeblemind their casters.

What "impossibly high" meant in my above post is that it's difficult to find creatures of appropriate CR that can hit about 50% of the time (that means they have a +20 or more to hit).

As shilsen and I have shown, that's not really true.

You guys have given some good advice about how to beef up encounters with templates and such. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to approach every encounter from scratch. I can't build up every rank and file member of a horde as powergaming as my players build up a single character.

I need an easy fix. And the easy fix could just be that I don't enjoy running "high level" and to restart the game at 1st.

You may be right. Ultimately, as several of us have said, yes, it takes some effort to effectively challenge higher-level PCs. If you don't have that time, and aren't comfortable running for PCs at that level, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Slife]

This actually seems like something the gleemax charop forums might be useful for. Put up a post with full info on the characters and ask what weaknesses they have that you might be missing.

 

[mhensley]

I could completely wipe out the party with incorporeal undead, even those of a far lesser EL than the party. The cleric stinks at turning. Summoned nature's allies would be useless against them. I could negate all of that sweet armor bonus the party has. But unfortunately if I used that encounter, the players would think I was deliberately trying to kill their characters. It would be like throwing a tarrasque against them.

They chose how to min/max their characters and if they aren't well-rounded, tough cookies. Try this one -


Advanced Dread Wraith
Large Undead (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 32d12 (208 hp)
Initiative: +13
Speed: Fly 60 ft. (good) (12 squares)
Armor Class: 27 (-1 size, +9 Dex, +9 deflection), touch 27, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/—
Attack: Incorporeal touch +24 melee (2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +24 melee (2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constitution drain, create spawn
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., daylight powerlessness, incorporeal traits, lifesense 60 ft., undead traits, unnatural aura
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +21, Will +22
Abilities: Str 0, Dex 28, Con 0, Int 17, Wis 18, Cha 28
Skills: Diplomacy +35, Hide +35, Intimidate +35, Knowledge (religion) +35, Listen +35, Search +35, Sense Motive +35, Spot +35, Survival +12 (+6 following tracks)
Feats: Ability Focus (Constitution drain), Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (incorporeal touch), Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 15
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil

Lifesense (Su)
A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch.

Constitution Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by a dread wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 29 Fortitude save or take 1d8 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the dread wraith gains 5 temporary hit points.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a dread wraith becomes a wraith in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

 

[Pell-Mell]

Although some of this has been mentioned above, I think there are a couple of easy things you can implement right now that will improve your game:

1) When planning your encounter, assume your party is 2-3 levels higher than it really is. As mentioned above, the game assumes a 4 person party. The addition of animal companions, cohorts, etc. only exacerbates the situation.

2) Add more monsters, rather than just throwing one really big monster at them. This will split their attacks and make it so they can't just pile on one monster. Furthermore, you can have them put more pressure on the back row that is summoning monster after monster.

3) Spend 5-10 minutes reviewing a new monster before the game, particularly any special abilities. For instance, the bone devils (and their human buddy) could start flying and invisible (both at-will powers). They could use major illusion to confuse the PC's or wall of ice to divide and conquer (useful for trapping fighter types and picking on the back row).

4) Need a quick, cool monster/NPC but don't have time to stat him up? Try google with the following search string:

site:www.wizards.com +grp "CR XX"

Replace XX with the CR you need. This will search the WotC site and return 3.5 stat blocks of the appropriate CR.

 

[moritheil]

No. I've been able to reach AC 30 at much lower levels than 10th, so I know it's possible.

What "impossibly high" meant in my above post is that it's difficult to find creatures of appropriate CR that can hit about 50% of the time (that means they have a +20 or more to hit).

Then your statements don't add up. You know how to optimize, and you want to solve the problem of weak encounters, but you refuse to use the knowledge you already have? The players don't take their characters out of the box; why are you using nothing but monsters out of the box? A proper DM should make monsters, not just find them.

And what about my suggestion of wraithstrike? It solves the AC problem perfectly, but I notice you didn't address it.

I could completely wipe out the party with incorporeal undead, even those of a far lesser EL than the party. The cleric stinks at turning. Summoned nature's allies would be useless against them. I could negate all of that sweet armor bonus the party has. But unfortunately if I used that encounter, the players would think I was deliberately trying to kill their characters. It would be like throwing a tarrasque against them.

According to what you said, your alternative is to bore your players to death. They are ASKING you to throw something challenging at them. Just because the party isn't built to deal with it doesn't mean they should get a bye. Regarding your comparison, the tarrasque is EL 20 and anything they can do against it is literally futile. This isn't the same situation. Though statistically they probably can't win against incorporeal dead in sufficient numbers, some of them may figure out a way to survive somehow. Don't equate two pre-epic encounters of vastly different EL.

You guys have given some good advice about how to beef up encounters with templates and such. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to approach every encounter from scratch. I can't build up every rank and file member of a horde as powergaming as my players build up a single character.

That's a little extreme. No one's saying you need to do this for every encounter, just that every once in a while you should mix things up and show the PCs that they are not omnipotent.

I need an easy fix. And the easy fix could just be that I don't enjoy running "high level" and to restart the game at 1st.

Retreater

Sure, do what you like. You might want to note in the future that higher level games require a little more work than level 1-3 games.

Honestly, if you are an optimizer, then I can't figure out why you started this thread in the first place. You should have known what was possible and what was not possible already. And if - as you say - the problem lies in your willingness to apply your knowledge, then that's something only you can deal with; we can't force you to do it or not do it, and a thread will have little impact on the matter.