When to Run? Balancing Descretion with Heroism

[Remathilis]

Maybe you should learn to avoid spectres? FEAR the undead, don't treat them like a lowly goblin. 3e undead are wimps. Just another encounter, a minor hassle, nothing to be alarmed about. Old school level draining rocks.

I don't think I've seen a group actually fight a rust monster in a decade. They just run away in terror.

Both of these quotes (pulled from the new design philosophy thread) illustrate a unique problem in D&D, how do you get PCs to be cautious, without ruining the concept of heroism.

In older D&D games, there were PLENTY of monsters which had the sole purpose of making your PCs run like girls. Either literally (dragon fear, mummy dispair) or figuratively (ah! a spectre, don't let it touch me!). Clearly, they serve a purpose in the game (to keep PCs from being too big for their britches) but they also have very game-disrupting abilities that can ruin an otherwise smooth encounter or even throw a campaign off track.

To Whit: You go into the Dungeon of Icky Terror (tm). Three rooms in, you see 2 wraiths. They see you. You have too options, fight (and possibly be level-drained) or flee. Since you really can regroup in a dungeon (incorporal) they decide to leave the dungeon. Adventure over.

Or the Classic Fighter's plate gets eaten by a rust monster. Great. Now the fighter is either ham-stringed in his duty (meat shield) or he has to go back to town, get new armor, and come back. A 5 minute combat just took 25 minutes to resolve.

So, aside from the concept of scaring your players into inactivity (We're not going in there! There are spectres!) what purpose does these monsters serve? They aren't heroic challenges to overcome if the battle strategy is to run-away like the knights in Monty Python. Both monsters (old school level-drainers and rust monsters) are designed not as challenges per se, but as either smug warnings (you shoulda ran...) or cruel punishments (You know that plate of etherealness? roll for initative). Certainly, the cost of fighting them is greater than similar monsters of equal power, and they have greater potential to ruin a plot or dungeon, even a campaign.

So, why use a monster for the purpose of making the PCs run?

 

[Plane Sailing]

but they also have very game-disrupting abilities that can ruin an otherwise smooth encounter or even throw a campaign off track.

I'm having difficulty with this concept. "Ruin an otherwise smooth encounter"?

In all the games I play and all the games I run, every encounter has the opportunity to go completely pear-shaped, most encounters -don't- go 'smoothly'.

Similarly, heroism is what you do when the odds are against you - doesn't require spectres or whatnot to be around. What do you do if you are last man standing? What do you do if you might have to sacrifice yourself to complete the mission/save your friends/rescue the princess?

Cheers

 

[Ilium]

My question is: why are the PCs in the dungeon in the first place? If it's "kill things and take their stuff," then they really are just trying to maximize their profit. In that case it's perfectly reasonable (and in character) to decide something is too tough and run for it.

But if the characters are really motivated, they will face the Big Monster of Ickiness (tm) because the have to in order to achieve their goals. In my game recently, the PCs had to get through a slew of really nasty level-draining undead in order to prevent a Bad Thing(tm) from happening. If they were just after treasure they would have run for it and come back with heavy artillery. Instead they slogged through, took their lumps and saved the day.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

You run when all of the following conditions are true:

1) Things have gone badly
2) Things have gone really, really badly
3) You are not the slowest PC left alive
4) You are certain that the the other players won't kill you themselves

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Seriously though.

You run when the risks are no longer worth the rewards (love, honor, money - whatever said rewards might be)

Take that as a player or as a PC. Works either way.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

So, why use a monster for the purpose of making the PCs run?

As a quick look at the movement rules in all editions will reveal, running is the most certain means of guaranteeing that at least 51% of your "heroic" party gets eaten when faced by intelligently played monsters.

IME unless you have a Potion of Fly or somesuch magic squirrelled away for that rainy day, it is pretty foolish to run. Better to go down swinging as a team than have most of your dearest friends (and probably yourself) hunted down one at a time for sport.

 

[Abraxas]

I agree wit Ridley's Cohort.

IME - Other than when the party avoids an opponent to begin with, once combat has started the only characters with a chance of running away are the arcane spellcasters (who always have a movement enhancer prepped), monks and anyone close enough to the arcane casters to hop in on the t-port or dim door.

The other thing I have experienced is that the information needed to make the descision to run or not run isn't available until its too late due to a cascade of bad rolls.

 

[Talic]

I think its definately best to present a challenge that is obviously very very dangerous to the party. As others have stated, otherwise players don't know its deadly untill it's to late.

But I think maybe the best thing to do in such encounters is to provide for multiple means of escape. Dont make the hall they came down the only reasonable way out, with another door on the far side of the chamber, behind the threat. Instead, give the party a chance to identify the threat, and provide a second(or more) means of escape.

For a rough example in a generic dungeon, the party enters a long chamber. At the far end, a couple of giants(something obviously well above party's ability) sift through some loot. The players should have a round or 2 to realzie the threat before the giants notice them. If they dont run, it should take an additional round or 2 for the threat to be on them. Maybe a rickety bridge span's a chasm between the party and the giants, slowing their attack. Even if the players dont immediately retreat, they may change their mind after the first salvo of magic and arrows doesnt slow down the enemy. Now the players have decided to run, but there are 3 small doors(big enough for party, not big enough for giants) on this side of the chasm for them to flee through.

The slow time to the full encounter can provide a clue that maybe they shouldnt be there, and that they have time to retreat. Providing options gives them other means of progressing through the adventure without flat out turning around and finding the last fork in the road. If you want the party to run, dont turn it into an inescapable chase. The doors are to small for the giants to pursue, but the party can feel like they narrowly averted death.

Despite what I just said, sometimes the chase is good. More to herd the party through the story than actually hurt. But have them flee from an area they've already explored. Have them chased by never-ending swarms of spiders. Something they can easily outrun and escape, but if they hold their ground, they'll eventually die. but even here, a choice of exit routes is strongly encouraged.

I don't think the players should be outclassed like that to often, but once in a while urges a bit more caution, and instills a bit more respect in the DM's story. Just a reminder that while they are the heroes, they may not win in the end.

 

[FireLance]

So, why use a monster for the purpose of making the PCs run?

Because sometimes, the DM does want to make the PCs run. Because some DMs think that true heroes must be willing to risk and accept permanent consequences for the greater good.

Not all monsters are suitable for all types of games. As I posted in the new design philosophy thread, such monsters probably should come with a warning label.

If you want to make level draining less menacing, but still dangerous and delibitating to the PCs, one way is to house-rule it so a PC does not actually lose a level if he fails the save after 24 hours. Instead, the PC simply retains the negative level until he gets it restored. However, he still dies when the number of negative levels he has becomes equal to his hit dice.

 

[The_Gneech]

Monsters with weird draining abilities are not necessarily there to make the PCs run. In my games at least, they're there to provide either a change of pace (e.g., the wizards and monks wade in against the rust monster while the fighter cowers in the back), a mental challenge rather than a physical one ("How do we defeat something we can't take on directly?"), or because it makes sense in the scenario ("You're in a pyramid! Of -COURSE- there are mummies!").

The "Swords are no more use here!" encounter is a classic situation in myth, history, and gaming, and to leave it out would be as jarring an ommission as leaving out, say, bows and arrows.

-The Gneech