When will WOTC clarify the Stealth rules?

[Blacksmithking]

The kind of limits that might work for me might include halving your movement; something that means it isn't always better to throw in a check, irrespective of your chances.

Here's an idea: if you attempt to stealth, you grant combat advantage to your enemies. You can't be sneaky AND keep up your guard. Right now there's nothing stopping, say, a paladin in plate from making stealth checks and hoping for a high roll.

I've read the stealth rules, the various ENWorld and Gleemax stealth threads, and all the striker powers. I still don't think I understand how to use stealth.

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

How about turning "Stealth" into a power, sort of?

Stealth (special; at-will)
Activating Stealth is part of another action. You must have cover or concealment from all enemies when you activate Stealth. Make a Stealth check. Until the start of your next turn, you are unnoticed and all enemies grant combat advantage to you unless they make a Perception check that beats your Stealth check result. If you end your turn without cover or concealment from all enemies, Stealth ends.

It is only necessary to make a check for an enemy that is about to be attacked since that is the only time when combat advantage matters. To figure out if another enemy notices the rogue, use its passive perception or a perception check but only if it actively tries to find the rogue. No unnecessary dice rolling here.

This way a rogue can wait behind cover, activate stealth, move up to an enemy (presumably when the enemy has its back turned - abstract no-facing combat doesn't mean that you can't sneak up on someone - except in the rules as written of course...) and attack with combat advantage. Since the rogue's turn now ends and the rogue doesn't have cover or concealment he is automatically discovered by all remaining enemies.

 

[wedgeski]

Here's an idea: if you attempt to stealth, you grant combat advantage to your enemies. You can't be sneaky AND keep up your guard. Right now there's nothing stopping, say, a paladin in plate from making stealth checks and hoping for a high roll.

Indeed. The Fighter in my last session was quite surprised when not only did I say, "You might as well try and stealth...", but also when he rolled so high that he succeeded.

 

[essenbee]

So, can a troll hide behind a goblin to gain total concealment?

Of course not, what DM would allow that? The goblin is Small, the Troll is Large for heavens sake. Why do you need a ruling to state the obvious?

 

[clearstream]

How about turning "Stealth" into a power, sort of?

Stealth (special; at-will)
Activating Stealth is part of another action. You must have cover or concealment from all enemies when you activate Stealth. Make a Stealth check. Until the start of your next turn, you are unnoticed and all enemies grant combat advantage to you unless they make a Perception check that beats your Stealth check result. If you end your turn without cover or concealment from all enemies, Stealth ends.

Perfect. It would be sooo much simpler as a power. Then it would do as it says it does, but no one would be inventing fluffy reasons in their head why it shouldn't.

You need to add in the last sentence, 'or shout or attack'.

The only problem I see is that if you do have this power, isn't it even simpler to give Rogues CA whenever they are in cover or concealment?


-vk

 

[Tonester]

After countless hours of debate, research, etc, I sadly consider myself an expert on the subject. I'd say it really boils down to your DM understanding the poorly-written rules and then being fair in his/her assessment of what is "appropriate."

For instance, the above power example states "you must have cover or concealment from all enemies" which just isn't true. Nothing in the PHB states this. You merely need cover/concealment against any particular creature. Again, the example is a room full of monsters where half of them can see in the dark and the half can't.

The DM ruling on "appropriateness" comes into play when the DM decides that the creatures with dark vision have some way of effectively warning or communicating:

A) Exactly where someone is
or
B) The fact that someone is there, but not their exact location.

I.E.
A dark room where you have "guard dogs" that can see in the dark. Their barks might warn their masters of something being wrong when a stealthed player enters the room. However, the dogs cannot effectively tell their masters, "Oh, he is 2 squares to the right and 1 square ahead of the main doorway."

I think the rules work. But I agree they are worded pretty poorly, can be very confusing, are broken up into too many areas that must be re-compiled to derive a clear meaning, dont' do a good enough job of describing what happens when an already noticed player or a player who is partially visible successfully stealths, etc.

 

[webrunner]

One problem is that Stealth rules seem to be tied to vision, confusing them with the concealment rules, when they're just as much based on hearing

 

[James McMurray]

Funky epic destiny that...

So, can a troll hide behind a goblin to gain total concealment?

Per Mike Mearls, this is up to the DM. Personally, I wouldn't allow it.

See, WotC did clarify something for you.

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

For instance, the above power example states "you must have cover or concealment from all enemies" which just isn't true. Nothing in the PHB states this. You merely need cover/concealment against any particular creature.

Yes, I wasn't trying to make a power that perfectly mimics the current rules. That would seem pointless since the current rules are what is causing all these problems. I was trying to create something that will work reasonably well for stealthing in combat. Note that I removed the rule that says that as soon as a stealthing creature leaves cover or concealment it is automatically detected, and replaced it with a condition that demands that it begins in cover or concealment instead. This makes more sense to me and makes everything a lot easier for everyone.

 

[Klaumbaz]

I have the rules straight,

This made me snort my soda out my nose.