Where is everybody? (Fermi paradox)

[tomBitonti]

If you're referring to the Biosphere 2 situations, the term 'experiment' wouldn't be applicable. These people were for the most part not scientists, ecologists, or recycling engineers. What they did was more stunt that any sort of serious research, and a space colony is not going to be trying to recreate entire diverse and different biosystems the way Biospehere tried to do for many, many years.

But, doesn't that reinforce my point? To build large colonies, we would need very close to closed systems for the colonists, and we haven't created such here on the Earth, let alone in space.

Thx!

TomB

 

[WayneLigon]

But, doesn't that reinforce my point? To build large colonies, we would need very close to closed systems for the colonists, and we haven't created such here on the Earth, let alone in space.

I'm thinking of water and waste systems. There are quite a number of very successful closed loop recycling systems available, and they have been available for many years now with very close to 100% reclamation. Heck, the ISS's system is about 93% efficient. The Biosphere's failure or success is completely irrelevant - we won't be trying to do recycling on that scale, in that way, for quite a long period of time.

 

[Nellisir]

Yeah, that sort of stuff is a real problem. I have no idea how you'd get around that.

Genetics, eventually. In the near term, it'd be more like an Antarctica station with rotating crew and mandatory birth control.

 

[Nellisir]

It is easy to get large digging equipement on the Moon?

As someone (you?) said, the ISS is up to 400 tons, and most of that was boosted with the space shuttle, so clearly we can get the mass up there.

Plus the people to do that?

Why do you think the shadow government is indoctrinating all the young people with video games? The round trip lag to the Moon and back is slightly less than 3 seconds. Remote control.

On which fuel will that machinery work on?

A radical new substance called "electricity". If it can drive a locomotive, it can probably drive a drill. Plus, reduced weight on the Moon means less stress on the earthmovers.

Digging requires lots of energy.

Yes. If only there was a nearby star we could tap for energy.

Do we even have rockets that can lift that kind of payload?

These probably won't be generic Caterpillar bulldozers.

Even if we go for lava tubes that already exist, you still have to make them inhabitable.

Foam.

Building the ISS started in 1998 and in 2014 another module will be attached, giving it a weight of 400 tons. It can't grow its own food, produce its air or water, host more than a few people at a time, etc. The ISS is not a colony. It is a luxury lab/summer camp.

Space is major limitation of the ISS, as in square footage. If we can find lava tubes, or even if we have to excavate, there's a lot more space available much more cheaply on the Moon. If you want a gym on the ISS, you have to build it and carry it up. Two gyms, 2x cost. If you want a gym on the Moon, you need a digger and fuel. Two gyms, the digger and fuel infrastructure are already in place. Just run them for another week.

We do not have the tech to make a lunar colonies.

That is an opinion.

Melting ice requires a lot of energy

Sunshine melts comets all the time. Even on the moon, the sun melts ice. That's why the Moon isn't covered in ice even though it's way way way below freezing.

If you wanna think it is just an engineering challenge, well it means that a technology has to be develop, which means it isn't there yet.

Enough of the technology is there that we could go ahead.

 

[Nellisir]

Say there was another planet with a civilization at least equal to our own out there rather close -- like only a few hundred light years away, (right next door by galactic distances) -- could we even detect them? Would they have to wait for our electromagnetic signals to reach them in another hundred-plus years before they'd know we were here?

Given our current capabilities, probably. If they're 200 light years away, it's still the early 1800's and we're not yet lighting up the globe. Could be atmostpheric changes due to industrialization, though. They could detect oxygen in our atmosphere, I think.

Assuming that the speed of light truly is the limit for travel and communication, couldn't the galaxy/universe be full of hundreds or millions of civilizations, but none of them/us can contact with one another, or even find/acknowledge one another because of the distances?

It could be, but there are a lot of stars that aren't "a few hundred light years away". This page, for instance estimates 15,000 stars within 100 light years of us, of which roughly 11,160 are Class M-type stars, like our sun. Given what the telescopes have been telling us about extra-solar planets, it seems a lot of stars, even red dwarfs (which are often Type M and very long lived and stable) are capable of planets and a habitable (by our standards) zone. Communicating over thousands of years would be hard, but fifty years? Not so much. It would be weird if civilizations _never_ occurred within some kind of reasonable range of each other. Sometimes, yes, but at other times and places you might have clusters. I think it's more likely the period of radio activity is fairly brief in a species lifespan (we're at about .1% right now).

Is the search for other civilizations moot because of the distances and physics?

Moot would be quitting now. When we've checked everything out to a few hundred light years and found no life (not civilization, just life), then I'd consider taking a rest. If we can find ONE other instance of life, of any kind, then the whole equation changes.

 

[Morrus]

Given our current capabilities, probably. If they're 200 light years away, it's still the early 1800's and we're not yet lighting up the globe. Could be atmostpheric changes due to industrialization, though. They could detect oxygen in our atmosphere, I think.

That information doesn't travel any faster than the radio waves do, though. Still the speed of light, so still 200 years. And then, even if the timing did work out and they replied, there's 200 years back again.

Moot would be quitting now. When we've checked everything out to a few hundred light years and found no life (not civilization, just life), then I'd consider taking a rest. If we can find ONE other instance of life, of any kind, then the whole equation changes.

I think we'll find it just within our solar system. Maybe not Mars, but some of the outer moons sound so promising. If only space programs got a little more funding.

 

[Scott DeWar]

My 2 cents here: As has been mentioned, there is ice on the moon, and gravity is only 1/6 of terra, sol 3, though not considered 'micro gravity'.

My questions are,
1. why not use *ahem* natural 'bio material' for farming in the [several times i think] mentioned greenhouses. I refer to human waste. you can possibly expose it to the extremely powerful UV light to kill stuff like E. Coli, then mix it with other compost that has starter composting enzymes. I am thinking much the same as eating yougert after taking heavy antibiotics to restart your digestive system, but in this case the 'yogurt ' is what is found in a compost bin. This will also produce some heat for the community. IIRC, the sun's energy is greatly lessened diffusing due to a greatly reduced atmosphere, there by giving a greater energy potential on the moon[?]. CO2 is being worked on in 2 directions. one is breaking the carbon/oxygen bond to recover the O2 and give carbon for soil base purposes. The other is the long time favorite of plants doing the converting, my favorite is Corn stalks.

2. This pertains to long term human 'cartage' to mars. I have heard of the idea of putting people in induced comas to reduce O2 and food use. Very old theory, I know. I just want to mention that 6 weeks of induced coma has left me so weak [still] 2 years later that I just can't see the viability of induced coma transfer. I remember watching a show about the ISS that an American astronaut that was so weak he could barely lift his arm to wave. It took a couple of months of PT to get him to a decent level of strength afterward. I have been in the ' learning to walk again' category of need and 2 years later I am still recovering.

Now granted my case is a bit worse as I was deathly ill for the time of my coma. What I would like to know is,
A) is there a viable alternative to a 'sleeping worker' transport system?

B) Also, even though the moon is not micro grav, wouldn't it be a viable possibility to expect the same problems as micro grav, just taking longer to occur?

 

[Kramodlog]

As someone (you?) said, the ISS is up to 400 tons, and most of that was boosted with the space shuttle, so clearly we can get the mass up there.


Why do you think the shadow government is indoctrinating all the young people with video games? The round trip lag to the Moon and back is slightly less than 3 seconds. Remote control.


A radical new substance called "electricity". If it can drive a locomotive, it can probably drive a drill. Plus, reduced weight on the Moon means less stress on the earthmovers.


Yes. If only there was a nearby star we could tap for energy.


These probably won't be generic Caterpillar bulldozers.


Foam.


Space is major limitation of the ISS, as in square footage. If we can find lava tubes, or even if we have to excavate, there's a lot more space available much more cheaply on the Moon. If you want a gym on the ISS, you have to build it and carry it up. Two gyms, 2x cost. If you want a gym on the Moon, you need a digger and fuel. Two gyms, the digger and fuel infrastructure are already in place. Just run them for another week.


That is an opinion.


Sunshine melts comets all the time. Even on the moon, the sun melts ice. That's why the Moon isn't covered in ice even though it's way way way below freezing.


Enough of the technology is there that we could go ahead.

We'll see in 5 years if the technology is invented first.

 

[Nellisir]

We'll see in 5 years if the technology is invented first.

That's pretty cool, though it seems like a pretty small-scale thing, not a habitat-scale drill.

3D printing could have a lot to offer space missions. I've heard the Navy is very interested in 3D printing because of the sheer quantity of spare parts they're required to care currently for aircraft carriers and the like. It would be a lot more economical to ship large crates of "magic anything powder" into space than any collection of parts.

Honestly, what I'd really like to see is more work on near-Earth asteroids. Land some people on one of them. Gives you a base to launch further missions from, and room to play around with stuff like zero-g mining and habitat creation.

 

[Scott DeWar]

Didn't the Canooks engineer the shuttle arm as well? What else are they hiding up their coat sleeves?