Where is the bugbear rage?

[Mr. Teapot]

Alternatively, just give a flat bonus to damage rolls with weapon keyword powers when using an oversized weapon. +1 damage per tier should be fairly okay, and this way, it stacks with Superior Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus.

The fact that Oversized stacks with both of those feats is part of what makes it broken. (Brutal is the other.) Why work to keep the ability broken when you could just as easily keep it balanced by making it Weapon Focus as a bonus feat?

 

[Runestar]

I say let the bugbear keep it. I personally find that the MM races are quite inferior to existing PC races, due to their dearth of abilities.

The designers are right in that they are not meant as PC races, because they stink! Compare the MM warforged to the web enhancement version; they had to be given a substantial boost to be deemed viable.

 

[FireLance]

The fact that Oversized stacks with both of those feats is part of what makes it broken. (Brutal is the other.) Why work to keep the ability broken when you could just as easily keep it balanced by making it Weapon Focus as a bonus feat?

I think 4e is robust enough that an extra +1 to damage per tier won't break most games. If I remember correctly, the real balance concern was that certain brutal 2 one-die [W] weapons became brutal 2 two-die [W] weapons when the standard method of increasing the [W] of a larger-sized weapon was applied. This led to a more than +1 bonus to damage on average.

That it stacks with Superior Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus is a nod to tying flavor with rules and in-game logic. The increase to damage is supposed to come from using a larger-than-normal weapon, which is separate from the ability to use a better weapon or generic weapon skill.

Perhaps the need to change the flavor of the bugbear ability was implicit in your suggestion to give a bonus feat, so that the racial ability is one of extra weapon training instead of using a larger weapon. However, my suggestion was a way to retain the flavor while using more balanced mechanics. A flat bonus to damage does not change the number of dice per [W] and would thus avoid the brutal issue, for example.

 

[DracoSuave]

How's this for flavor.

Bugbears aren't large creatures.

Oversized weapons aren't even appropriate!

Seriously tho... the argument 'Some monsters are underpowered as PCs' is not a valid premise for 'therefore bugbears should be allowed the overpowered ability.' Bugbears DO have a great encounter racial power, and oversized weapons are A) not a good ability for a race to have anyways as it takes implement users out of the question, and B) There's better ways to make a race interesting than 'Does more damage than anyone else ever'

And, also, again, it's not +1 damage.

It's +1 damage per [W] minimum, perhaps more.

A 2d4 weapon becomes 2d6, which is more.

Brutal isn't the -only- way to break them.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The big difference here is the two different ways to look at it. As an exercise in creating a Bugbear PC race that would appear in Dragon and thus become 'official'... then yeah, the Oversized Weapons feature would be excised.

However, if the question just becomes "in my particular game I want to play a Bugbear, should the DM and I remove the 'oversized weapons' feature and replace it with something else... or just go with what's in the DMG?"... I think you can probably just keep the feature for your one game and it won't cause much problems provided you don't try and then max out every-single-little-facet of the feature. The fact that it doesn't help implement users only matters if your character choice was going to be an implement user, and the problems with multi-die [W] attacks and brutal properties etc. only matter if you select those weapons to use.

As the decision to play a bugbear as written in the DMG would need to be a combined players/DM decision... you can eliminate all these issues by just not selecting those things that would cause those issues. Playing a bugbear fighter who wields an oversized longsword basically turns into a bugbear wielding a bastardsword without spending a feat. So at the end of the day, that oversized weapon feature becomes nothing more than a free 'superior weapon' feat. And that is not a big deal at all at the end of the day.

 

[Larrin]

As the decision to play a bugbear as written in the DMG would need to be a combined players/DM decision... you can eliminate all these issues by just not selecting those things that would cause those issues. Playing a bugbear fighter who wields an oversized longsword basically turns into a bugbear wielding a bastardsword without spending a feat. So at the end of the day, that oversized weapon feature becomes nothing more than a free 'superior weapon' feat. And that is not a big deal at all at the end of the day.

This is of course the logical option, and one that is perfectly reasonable. DM should allow fun things that aren't a problem amongst agreeable players.

I just remember before the 'minotaur without oversized weapon' article came out, every time someone asked for a suggestion for a weapon using character one of the first answers was "Bugbear/minotaur with executioner's axe", If the original poster said "I want a spear wielding elf build" some one would have suggested they go with a bugbear with an executioner's axe, because it was a better option. As one can imagine, it created 'opinions' about oversized weapons, and its hard to forget such things. On principal i would just give them some other fun ability, it just hurts too much.

 

[Benlo]

They ought to make racia spreads for the Goblin family. I want me some bugbear and hobgoblin love.

AMEN.

We get Gnolls(Which I do love, don't get me wrong), but no goblinoids. Or Lizardfolk, but that one is more just personal taste.

 

[Panthine]

Bugbear feature to replace oversized weapons.

Weapon Brutality - A bugbear treats all weapons as brutal 1 weapons. Weapons that are normally brutal gain a +1 damage bonus.

 

[DracoSuave]

I honestly don't think replacing oversized weapons is the way to go here.

They have a power that ups damage once per encounter, and +2 in the most common attributes for melee physical attackers. Seriously, is that not enough to show the race as 'Good at beatings'?

Why not use the opportunity to -flesh out- the race, rather than trying to replace something overpowered with what is really the exact same problem.