D&D 5E where you're going to die in CoS (spoilers)

[CapnZapp]

Deadly doesn't mean "a pc is likely to die".

In fact, 5e is definitely running in carebear mode. Once the PCs have left the very lowest levels, it's exceedingly hard to kill them or even challenge them. Assuming you don't ditch the DMG encounter guidelines, which I am overwhelmed with joy to see that the CoS team seems to have done!

And so, I think it helps to think of differences between challenge rating (CR) and average party level (APL) in relative rather than absolute terms.

The reason a CR 5 encounter is so deadly at first or second level isn't because the CR is 3 steps higher than the APL. It is because the CR is 100% higher than the APL!

Also, the damage output of monsters generally slows down compared to the hit point total of heroes. Barring a few effects like Fireball and Meteor Swarm that yield more damage than their level suggests, once the party have reached level 5 or so, the ability of monsters to take them from healthy to dead without the party having time to react is lessened considerably.

What I mean is: at APL 2 a CR 6 encounter is indeed probably lethal, not only because the CR is +4, not even because the CR is triple the APL, but because the party is so fragile at low level.

At APL 6 the party stands a considerably higher chance of surviving a CR 18 encounter. Not winning it, and not without casualties. But in the sense of "surviving" meaning "avoiding a Total Party Kill".

Zapp

PS. So noone misinterprets this post - I love the way Curse of Strahd is filled, not with merely "DMG deadly" fights (which are fights that the party can and will win, which only encourages minmaxing) but with really lethal fights! If the party cannot use combat to overcome challenges, they are forced to resort to roleplaying!

 

[CapnZapp]

One other thing about this list which I think is helpful to me as a DM is that regardless of the disproportionate mechanical "power" of these areas... they illustrate the need to me to focus on story, first, especially in the areas mentioned.

Running this campaign is and will be different than running most other campaigns for me... because so much of it needs to be purely story-based. Wherein I get in the mindset to continually ignore the combat stats of all these monsters and instead treat them almost all as roleplaying NPCs. This is a setting that almost begs the response of being completely about negotiation and interaction between the PCs and the denizens of the valley. Combat should almost always be a last resort, because too many things will kill you too easily and too quickly.

Running the game with this mindset... that combat more often than not will not and should not occur, because invariably some other tactic will be be safer for the PCs and inevitably more successful to get them what they want... will force me to be ever cognizant of the land and how some of these areas perhaps should be run.

Just as an example: Old Bonegrinder and the three hags. Yes, as-is the encounter will f- the party up. Which behooves me to NOT run that location as-is. Instead, if I treat the area as a location with some NPCs to interact with... then it comes down to thinking "Hey, would the PCs be able to draw one of the daughters out of the windmill? If so, why? Where could they get her to go? Would she be arrogant enough to follow a few PCs somewhere outside the windmill because she doesn't fear them? If that happens, does that make it easier for the party to jump her? If the other hags hear or sense the attack, do they care enough for the other one to bother coming to her aid? If she escapes does she return to the windmill for help? Or does she despise her mother and sister enough to go off on her own to lick her wounds? And if so, does she now have a new focus on chasing/killing the PCs? Can the PCs use that to their advantage by pitting one hag now against the other two? What kind of deals can the party make if any?"

All kinds of ideas and statements like this I'm constantly going to be thinking about. All to justify why the denizens of Barovia are individuals with their own wants and needs and desires not to be killed... and not just a pile of monster hit points in separate locations for the party to wade through. Which I suspect will be a very different mindset for me to get into and run the game. I'm looking forward to it.

An excellent illustration why perhaps the biggest obstacle to getting the most out of the module is:

The D&D rules themselves.

Castle Ravenloft would probably be better off with almost any other fantasy ruleset than D&D. Preferably one without levels, so the "if it bleeds you can kill it" notion simply isn't there.

I would have loved a version of Curse of Strahd where the levelling treadmill simply isn't there. The idea "we must level up before we can face Strahd" is antithetical to good gothic horror.

Say, you start at 3rd level and remain 3rd level throughout the adventure. But by doing quests and finding items you can finally face Strahd and have a stand-off with him. Actually winning means finiding his crypt during daytime and staking his heart. If you fight Strahd you will lose.

 

[evilbob]

An excellent illustration why perhaps the biggest obstacle to getting the most out of the module is:

The D&D rules themselves.

Castle Ravenloft would probably be better off with almost any other fantasy ruleset than D&D. Preferably one without levels, so the "if it bleeds you can kill it" notion simply isn't there.

No argument here.

Our second Ravenloft campaign was a Vampire the Masquerade game, set in the Dark Age timeline. The characters were all vampires in the (relatively) newly formed Camarilla sent to assassinate the effectively "Anarch" Baron holdout, Strahd. I have to admit: it was pretty awesome. I really should go back and write it up some time...

But also worth noting is the 3.5 version's take: Strahd was effectively unkillable until you destroyed his connection to the land and his dayheart. It wasn't a level treadmill so much as a meta-quest to weaken him to the point that you could actually defeat him - much closer to what you're looking for here. (Unfortunately one side effect was that once he was killable the party would probably kill him in 1 round, thanks to the extremely binary nature of save-or-die effects in 3.5...)

 

[intently]

All you have to do to make the mound beatable is to not have it break the rules for large creatures in small spaces. If you remove that rule breakage, the fight becomes massively easier, and you also avoid an annoying 'gotcha'.

PHB 192, "Squeezing into a smaller space" says that the mound is squeezed into the 5' tunnels it will have disadvantage on attacks and DEX saves, and characters will have advantage to attack it.

 

[Daern]

My players are currently camping in Leomund's Tiny Hut in the Ossuary Dining room in Castle Ravenloft. How will they die there?

 

[DEFCON 1]

My players are currently camping in Leomund's Tiny Hut in the Ossuary Dining room in Castle Ravenloft. How will they die there?

By forgetting what the definition of "dome" is.

Specters... wraiths... incorporeal movement... ceiling/floor. Oh look! Specters and wraiths come up from the floor and are now inside the Tiny Hut! Whoops! LOL!

 

[Savage Wombat]

By forgetting what the definition of "dome" is.

Specters... wraiths... incorporeal movement... ceiling/floor. Oh look! Specters and wraiths come up from the floor and are now inside the Tiny Hut! Whoops! LOL!

Not to mention the master of the castle himself. I hope someone's on watch - if not, were I the DM, that Sunsword would be missing at daybreak...

 

[Charles Rampant]

So I nearly had a TPK last week in Curse. The players had managed to deal with Old Bonegrinder fairly well - albeit I was kind, and had two Green Hags at home, with Morgantha (who I made a Night Hag) only returning in round five of the combat. (Morgantha did escape, using Etherealness, someone whom I'm looking forward to reintroducing at an inconvenient moment later on...) But then the Coffin Maker's Shop. Hoo boy.

I was kind of cruel. The players decided to do a five-way-simultaneous staking of the vampire spawn. But they made no attempt to be stealthy, so I had the Spawn erupt from their crates, starting combat with neither side surprised. My players, who are level 4, rolled poorly on initiative - and thus the Vampires went first. Things went... poorly. The party basically did 0 damage, as they each individually attacked their own seperate opponents, and all the damage was healed at the start of the Vampire's turns. The Mastermind Rogue fled on turn one, after being Clawed for mucho health, and spent the rest of the fight trying to set the building on fire, while shouting helpful encouragement through the walls.

They ended up fleeing, with the party's Witchhunter turning to ashes behind them, having retrieved the bones but killed no Vampires at all. In our last session, I established that Rictavio had hunted down two of the Vampires, a fact that he revealed along with his identity. This leaves four spawn in the wind, which I'm not sure what to do with. Transpose into the castle? The Feast event won't happen, with the bones returned. Perhaps have them stalk the players to Krezk?

 

[Daern]

I had a similar scenario. The party jumped out the window to escape. They were ambushed by the vampire spawn during a later return to Vallaki and they served as henchmen when Strahd made an appearance in that town.

 

[Saeviomagy]

PHB 192, "Squeezing into a smaller space" says that the mound is squeezed into the 5' tunnels it will have disadvantage on attacks and DEX saves, and characters will have advantage to attack it.

Yeah, but the adventure says to ignore that, which sucks. The players are exercising smart tactics and then being denied the benefit.