Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Thanee]

Divine metamagic

That's a once per day, not even a few times per day.

Finger of Death vs Destruction.

That's just a small difference effectively, but clerics have nothing to compare against huge spells like Enervation (well at 17th+ level they get Energy Drain) or Magic Jar, for example.

Domain sponteneity.

As I said, you are clearly pushing it!

Freedom of Movement, Deathward, Spell Resistance?

Good spells, indeed. And there are a lot of good ones in the wizard list as well.
But as I said, the cleric has a small edge in the protective area, altho, they lack the super powerful spells like Blink, or even better, the non-core Greater Blink (not an abjuration, tho).

Maximised Fireseeds (no sr, no save) avg damage 120.

That's a druid spell or domain spell (very limited), and you need to hit with a thrown weapon, which has a rather lousy range.

Meteor Swarm (sr) avg 112. Cone of Cold vs Flame Strike? Chain Lightning? Horrid Wilting?

Fireball is better than Flame Strike already. Horrid Wilting puts pretty much every other damage spell to shame, because it's Fortitude and no energy damage and selectively targetable.

Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, etc are completely unmatched in the cleric list. They basically have Flame Strike and later Firestorm and that's it. I don't know how that is even comparable.

The cleric clearly wins when it comes to healing, tho.

But where they really lose big is the utility spells. They have very little there (some domains, like Travel, are good, but they are also pretty limited each day).

Bye
Thanee

 

[beaver1024]

That's a once per day, not even a few times per day.

Divine metamagic gives them the ability to persist their buffs for the full day so once a day is enough?

That's just a small difference effectively, but clerics have nothing to compare against huge spells like Enervation (well at 17th+ level they get Energy Drain) or Magic Jar, for example.

If it was exclusively arcane then you might have an argument there but it's a shame that clerics can get access so easily to Enervation and Magic Jar through Miracle, Magic domain, Any Spell, Greater Any spell.

Good spells, indeed. And there are a lot of good ones in the wizard list as well.
But as I said, the cleric has a small edge in the protective area, altho, they lack the super powerful spells like Blink, or even better, the non-core Greater Blink (not an abjuration, tho).

Again access for the cleric is but a wand or a spell away.

That's a druid spell or domain spell (very limited), and you need to hit with a thrown weapon, which has a rather lousy range.

It's ranged touch, up to 100 feet away. No way as bad as thrown weapons. Oh and I forgot to mention that it's multiuse. Domain limitations are easily circumvented.

Fireball is better than Flame Strike already. Horrid Wilting puts pretty much every other damage spell to shame, because it's Fortitude and no energy damage and selectively targetable.

Clerics don't get fireball but they do get Horrid Wilting. As again Miracle, Magic Domain etc etc.

Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, etc are completely unmatched in the cleric list. They basically have Flame Strike and later Firestorm and that's it. I don't know how that is even comparable.

This would be true if clerics actually didn't get Magic Missile or Scorching Ray. However they don't even have to resort to Miracle, Magic domain etc etc or anything. Magic Missile is availble from the Force domain and Scorching Ray is available via the initiates of pelor feat. That bypasses even the domain restrictions.

But where they really lose big is the utility spells. They have very little there (some domains, like Travel, are good, but they are also pretty limited each day).

Again very easily avoided. Scrolls, domain sponteneity, pearls of power. It's not as if clerics sacrifice anything to take those feats. Those feats are good in an off themselves. It's far too cheap for clerics to get access to wiz/sorcs abilities.

 

[UmbraLux]

I'm curious, why is a cleric considered overpowered by so many? Because of the flexibility?

In most games the power to destroy is what 'rules', and wizards have the potential for far greater offensive power than clerics. Hence the cliche 'Damage is King'. The cliche is probably more known (and applicable) to MMOs than PnP games, but the same principles apply.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If it was exclusively arcane then you might have an argument there but it's a shame that clerics can get access so easily to Enervation and Magic Jar through Miracle, Magic domain, Any Spell, Greater Any spell.

Clerics don't get fireball but they do get Horrid Wilting. As again Miracle, Magic Domain etc etc.

This would be true if clerics actually didn't get Magic Missile or Scorching Ray. However they don't even have to resort to Miracle, Magic domain etc etc or anything. Magic Missile is availble from the Force domain and Scorching Ray is available via the initiates of pelor feat.

So a Cleric of Pelor with the Magic and Force domains is better than a wizard?

-Hyp.

 

[IcyCool]

So a Cleric of Pelor with the Magic and Force domains is better than a wizard?

-Hyp.

He mentioned Anyspell and Greater Anyspell from the forgotten realms. Are those readily accessible spells for clerics, or do they come from a domain?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Finger of Death vs Destruction.

10d6 < 3d6+clvl when clvl >= 23.5

At epic levels or properly buffed, Finger of Death is better. (Though, obviously at the most commonly played levels, destruction is better).

It's an unusual case, however--wail of the banshee and wierd are better than any of the instakills that clerics command.

Your later list however, strikes me as somewhat inaccurate. Sure, you can get fire seeds with a cleric.... by taking the Sun domain. Similarly, you can use wands of blink by taking the magic domain or get magic missile from the force domain. However, tallying all of those points in the cleric's favor ignores the fact that any given cleric will only have two of those domains. (There are ways to get more, but they involve prestige classes and are properly addressed in relation to the balance of prestige classes--not core classes). Furthermore, including non-core domains and feats on the cleric side of the equation but not on the wizard side (where blast of flame, arc of lightning, the orb spells, vitriolic sphere, and most especially, reciprocal gyre (since layered buffs are a major source of clerical power) would significantly alter the equation. If you're addressing divine metamagic, you should be comparing it to Born of the Three Thunders and Sudden Maximize--not a core rulebooks only wizard).

 

[Testament]

He mentioned Anyspell and Greater Anyspell from the forgotten realms. Are those readily accessible spells for clerics, or do they come from a domain?

The Spell domain, or Initiate of Mystra feat. They're the least of the problems with that Initiate Feat however. Also, Greater Anyspell doesn't allow you to copy 9th level spells, as he seems to be implying.

Lets also not forget that FRealms is the setting that gave us other wonderfully balanced things like the Elf domain, the Incantatrix, and the DweomerCheater of Mystra. I hardly think drawing on FRealms for balance arguments is the best idea. Heck, most of the record holders at the CO Boards are based on FRealms material (Twice Betrayer, DweomerCheater, and the grand daddy of them all, Pun-Pun, the Ultimate Kobold).

Divine metamagic gives them the ability to persist their buffs for the full day so once a day is enough?

I have to say, Divine Persistence has never worried me, since its a minimum of 3 feats invested (usually 4 for Extra Turning, or 7,500 gp for a Nightstick. That's an issue with the item though). Divine Reach and more importantly, Divine Quicken have always been my concerns.

You also mentioned Conjure Ice Beast. One, that's on the Sorc/Wiz list too. Secondly, its from Frostburn, possibly the most overpowered and ludicrous book that WotC has ever released.

 

[Testament]

<SNIP!> reciprocal gyre (since layered buffs are a major source of clerical power) <SNIP!>

Heck yes. My group has dubbed that spell "Die Cleric, DIE!" or "Clericbuster".

I can't remember the last time one of us called it anything else.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

[*]Quickened Divine Favor (obviously was worse before the errata)

I don't see what was so overshadowing about this unless it was used in conjunction with divine power and a host of other spells. It's a good 5th level spell (and was better before the erratta) but didn't, by itself shift the balance of power.

[*]Persistant Divine Power (my DM allowed it)

Yup. Though that's primarily a problem with the persistent spell feat. There's almost nothing it works on that is not either utterly useless or horrendously broken. (For the latter category, see wraithstrike, persistent)

[*]Using Spikes on a club

Another key offender. (Though it was the spell itself that was obnoxious not the cleric casting it--IME, it was often the fighter or barbarian begging for it and going through contortions to get a wooden falchion to cast it on).

[*]GMW

Sure, it's a staple of the battle cleric, but wizards actually do this better. (And psions do it even better than wizards). And, IME, GMW is a staple of everyone who uses weapons--not just clerics and thus doesn't contribute to clerics overshadowing anyone.

[*]Using detect traps and Divine Insight (or wieldskill)

If this overshadowed the party's rogue then the rogue was incompetent. Since the duration is short and both spells offer insight bonuses (which don't stack), a cleric using this combo will not only underperform a competent rogue, but will not be able to do it for long enough to do a thorough search of anything. I know my 13th level cleric could do this, but even if both spells stacked, he'd still not be as good at finding traps as his 11th level ranger/rogue cohort. (who is built on 22 points instead of 28).

But the duration is the key thing here. It takes a full round action to search a 5' square. If we assume a mid level caster, it will last 8-16 minutes and will give a +4 to +8 bonus to the search check. (Divine insight would boost that to +15 but would be incompatible with take 20). Since most dangerous traps are DC 26+, it's unlikely that a cleric could be sure of success without taking 20. So, at most, one casting of find traps will search two doors (take 20) and a short corridor between them (4 rolls per square in order to have a reasonable chance of finding a trap). Unless your dungeons are very small and your party's enemies are too dumb/unaware to take advantage of the party's slow progress, a skilled rogue is dramatically superior.

[*]Dispel magic

And they do this better than wizards or sorcerers how? (Inquisition domain perhaps, but then they're not doing the blasting).

[*]Magic Vestment

I've yet to see a cleric outshine other people because of magic vestment. Usually, the spell just results in the entire party sticking to +1 armor with lots of special abilities.

[*]Spell Resistance

This one is unique to clerics, but it hasn't come up a lot in my games....

[*]Commune[/list]

I wouldn't say that commune is overpowered myself--more that contact other plane is a pathetic excuse for a spell. Give contact other plane some teeth and this problem would go away.

The list goes on and on, but the point is that they can handle to job of a fighter better than a fighter, a caster almost as good as a caster, and a skill-monkey almost as good as a skil-monkey.

The fighter I'll buy. but a CASTER?!? Clerics ARE casters. They can't do offensive magic as well as wizard can, but I don't think it's a problem if they can come close. (After all, it wouldn't be very much fun to play a character who couldn't hold his own in a fight, couldn't hold his own in a magic duel, and didn't even have the false comfort of "at least I get good skill points). As for skill monkeys.... what are you smoking man? With the right prestige class, I can see clerics being skill monkeys (but at that point, they're really a shadowbane stalker or church inquisitor not a cleric) but core clerics are not a good substitute for a skill monkey--even with divine insight. One good (though not necessarily extraordinary--by the time divine insight maxes out, 1 rank +15 insight is not enough to be competitive with real skill monkeys in terms of bonuses) skill check per second level slot does not a skill monkey make.

 

[Zimbel]

Really?

How many clerics and how many druids over the last 5 years? What levels did they play through? What PrCs did they take? What kind of player played them?

Or perhaps most specifically: What specific action, during gaming, did these clerics take that (to you) felt way-over-the-top?

Try focusing on that last question. I'm honestly curious.

Yes.

Roughly 9. Of those, I would consider 1 weak for the party (horrible rolls was part of the reason- Wis 13 was the highest score), and 1 average. The others were at least among the top two party members, often the top one. Various, from 1-22, concertrated more in the lower levels. Various, although the majority took no prestige clas, and one took a prestige class that was weaker than the base class (other than saves). Powergamers, roleplayers, both, and even neither.

Personally (and I realise that this isn't a common experience) I've found the Cleric to be the most popular class, from 3rd edition OD&D-3.5.

1) Being one of the top (or at times, for particular PCs, the top) front-liners AND the top healer AND the second best offensive spellcaster (typically). Unlike the Wiz/Sor, there isn't a "weak point" at early levels- that's just a point where they do a bit less non-healing spellcasting, and more fighting.
2) Harm, Heal, Mass Heal, Miracle. Buffing the entire party to be sigificantly stronger. (In 3.5 they fixed Quest to be harder to abuse.)