Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-Underpowered

[Merlion]

Armor is useless if you are not fighting.

First rule of Wizards: Don't fight

But Clerics can and do fight. So having armor is useful for them.

+1 at levels 2 to 6, and +2 at levels 7 to 10 is not very relevant.

See above.

But on teams that work like a team, Fighters and Wizards work together to allow the Wizard time to area effect opponents (Fighter can Ready or Delay you know).

But it is still a disadvantage...you can only control your actions, not the Fighters. And eventually the Fighter types are going to want to...and should be able to..enter combat. At which point your AoEs become less useful

Clerics rarely have twice the hit points of Wizards

d8 versus d4. average 4 per level rather than average 2 per level.

Most (intelligent) players of Wizards bump up their CON and buy CON boosting items

And a Cleric isnt going to do much the same? Every character I create has bumped up Con.

At 7th level it is a death sentence for most enemies

How exactly?

And, not necessarily a better AC. Only a better AC is the Wizard is not prepared for battle. Greater Mage Armor and Mirror Image and the Wizard is not exactly easy to hit.

Neither is a Cleric with magic full plate (or magic Vestment) and Shield of Faith etc

At high levels, the enemies should rarely even see a well designed Wizard (Invisibility). You cannot target someone you cannot see. By the time they get up their True Seeing (if they have it), the first spell against spell casting enemies is one which prevents them from targeting the Wizard (area effect cloud or fog spells). Fog Cloud or even Solid Fog does not really prevent your own Fighters from being effective.

Whats that got to do with you overestimating the usefulness of AoE damage spells?

But, they are not spell casting powerhouses

Yea they are. Just not damage dealing-spell spell casting powerhouses.

Even if they werent, they are enough so that compliled with the durability you mentioned, they are unbalanced

 

[KarinsDad]

But it is still a disadvantage...you can only control your actions, not the Fighters. And eventually the Fighter types are going to want to...and should be able to..enter combat. At which point your AoEs become less useful

No problem with that.

Only a problem if the Fighter always does it. If he is not willing to be a team player, he gets what he deserves.

d8 versus d4. average 4 per level rather than average 2 per level.

And a Cleric isnt going to do much the same? Every character I create has bumped up Con.

No doubt, but on this you are still wrong. Average 4.5+CON versus 2.5+CON. Clerics do NOT average twice as many hit points as Wizards. They average ~2 more hit points per level as Wizards.

How exactly?

Most enemies do not have a great grapple.

The grapple of the Evard's is 15 for a 7th level Wizard. No saving throw. No spell resistance. No touch attack required. Ties usually go to the spell since very few 7th level opponents have a higher grapple.

The grapple of a 7th level Fighter with a 18 Strength is 11. The spell wins 70% of rounds.

The grapple of a 7th level Cleric with a 16 Strength is 8. The spell wins 80.5% of rounds.

The grapple of a 7th level Rogue with a 14 Strength is 7. The spell wins 86% of rounds.
(note: a Rogue who maxxed out Escape Artist could probably get out nearly 50% of the time)

The grapple of a 7th level Wizard with a 12 Strength is 4. The spell wins 92% of rounds.

Sure, there is a slim chance of getting out for most opponents and strong combatant types like Fighters and Barbarians can manage it. Or, combatant types with Improved Grapple. But, many other classes (and monsters) cannot get out quickly.

Now granted, the spell only lasts 7 rounds and does not in and of itself do a lot of damage. But, that is a LONG time in combat to be wasting rounds attempting to get out of a grapple. Plenty of time to follow up with Fireballs or arrows or other attack forms.

If a 12 Strength Wizard gets caught in it and does not have Dimension Door or Gaseous Form or Grease and a good Concentration skill, he could be in big trouble. His chances of getting out before the spell expires in only 44%.

And even if opponents do manage to get out, the rest of the PCs can often gang up on the ones who get out each round.

It is a pretty devastating spell at 7th level, especially when combined with other spells. And, the grapple of it improves by caster level, so it is still an ok spell at 20th level with a grapple check of 28 (although more opponents have more options to escape by that level).

Whats that got to do with you overestimating the usefulness of AoE damage spells?

It doesn't. It has to do with Wizards not needing high hit points and AC if they rarely get targeted.

You have to play to your strengths and to your weaknesses.

Yea they are. Just not damage dealing-spell spell casting powerhouses.

Precisely.

And, not too often multi-target spell casters against opponents. There are a few spells like that, but not many.

 

[beaver1024]

No problem with that.

Most enemies do not have a great grapple.

Freedom of Movement is the counter for Evards. BTW clerics also can cast Evards.

 

[Hypersmurf]

BTW clerics also can cast Evards.

Via Miracle?

Or some obscure FR domain?

-Hyp.

 

[beaver1024]

Hmmm.

The Wizard takes the Arcane Disciple feat and the Healing Domain and he can now heal himself and others.

Only 1/day and only with requisite wisdom. Must also find the spells. Shows how hard it is for wizards to get access to cleric spells.

Contrast this with the numerous ways clerics can get access to wizard/sorc spells and designer bias clearly shines through.

What does a Wizard really get over a Cleric?

Area effect spells, not just damaging ones, but entrapping ones as well.

Clerics can have access to the same ones.

Single character defensive spells.

Clerics have way better defensive spells. Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity all negate whole swathes of offensive abilities.

Movement, both due to not wearing armor and due to better movement spells.

Cleric can get them too and clerics also get the best non-dimensional travel spell in the game, Wind Walk.

Scrolls, the Cleric has to use a feat to acquire scrolls.

Magic domain allows clerics to use a wider variety of scrolls than wizards every will.

Illusions, Clerics have virtually no illusions whereas that is one of the better ways for a Wizard to stay alive.

Clerics have access to illusions too. Invisibility, Miracle etc.

But, if Wizards were as weak as some people are implying, how come they do not die left and right in PC parties?

How do you know they don't?

No doubt about it. Clerics are more powerful. I think they are the most powerful class in the game, even stronger than Druids. But, they are not overwhelming when it comes to magic. They can adversely affect others, but they tend not to. They tend to augment their allies.

How do you know this? Do you play in every D&D game there is? What they tend or do not tend is irrelevant. What matters is what the class can do. Since they have same or better capabilities than the wizard's specialty areas, they're broken.

 

[beaver1024]

Via Miracle?

Or some obscure FR domain?

-Hyp.

Miracle, Magic domain, Initiate of Mystra to get Any Spell, Greater Any Spell, Limited Wish etc. etc.

 

[IamIan]

VERY Long post... Be warned...

And allowing it would be a house rule. Which makes it irrelevant. Every argument you make that hinges on this sort of item is entirely irrelevant. And does nothing to help your case other than to show you don't know what you are talking about.

Fine This will include a post with a 100% core book 3.5 Monk Lv20 no special gear straight up.

+6 periapt of wisdom. Note also, that one of those two items costs more than a suit of +5 full plate. Look at the comparison:

I have... and have been acused of nto being able to do the math.. so bellow look at the example and please point out to me the fundamental thing I am missing or failing to understand about the limits of what Armor and shield can do for AC.

Once again, your claims don't match the numbers when you actually work through the math.

I tried to give the general example... but included bellow is the math how it works out by Lv 20... please point out to me where the Fighter can get more AC to catch up to the monk... or point out where I missed a step in my math...

The monk's touch AC is admittedly great. But it cost him boatloads of cash to get there.

But a Lv 20 Character has over 700,000+ GP boat loads of cash it relavtive to the amoutn you have... and by that level the money is worth it... what else you going to spend it on .. thousands of serving girls??

Once again, your analysis shows a disconnect from reality.

I tried to give the basic Idea of the concept... but sense that failed to get my point acros... bellow if a sample of what i am talking about by Lv 20 for AC.

Allot else you went into multi-taskedness... And you will no doubt see that in my bellow example as well... but as i have said before I find multi-tasking can be useful but has serious limits and prevents you from reaching your best when you deversify.

And now we see you shift. The Dexterity monk no longer fits your example, so you dodge back to the grappling monk. At 20th level, the grappling monk is toast due to his relatively low AC and hit points. You can't have it both ways - pick one example 'uber' monk and show that he is better.

I have done this bellow... at least as far as AC goes...

Also As I sdaid from the begining.. the power of the monk is ability to specialize in different ways... and I also said from the begining... that monks are not more powerful than fighters until the end... when they have enough money to take advantage of being able to pump into both attributes.

Actually, the monk doesn't pass him in AC, since the fighter has boatloads of extra cash that the monk had to spend on ability enhancing items he can spend it on other AC enhancing items.

please see bellow and please show me the error of my ways and how the fighter with the same level and lv 20 money and such hell give him 18's in all attributes if you like... give him twice the cash.... becuase the Fighter's AC has Maxed out by Level 20 useing core Rules , classes and magic items... and it maxed out bellow the monks.

Give us an actual, example 20th level monk that you think would be "uber".

For AC the Monk Bellow is as good as ANY Class Can Get in the core rules, classes and magic items.... at least as far as I see... is he better than every one at every thing... no of course not... no one ever can be... but in his nitch his specialization he can be better than any one else...

As I said I had hoped general examples would show my point.. but they didn't....

and yes... if you want to throw this monk against every possible situation you will find ones he will fail in... a more "Well Rounded" monk will do better in that reguard... but this is for the AC Question... you posed that the fighter is always better and the monk can't catch him becuase the armor and shields are just better.

but... as I said if I am missing soemthign here and AC then please let me know...


Here is my full example of a by the end Lv 20 Monk for AC….
Maybe I am missing something… Maybe I just don’t understand something… but I don’t see how a Fighter in Armor using core stuff can get this high of an AC….
Even most CR Creatures have a very low chance of beating this AC…
Yes I know some still can beat it.. nothing is 100% against every enemy.

Halfling Lv 20 Monk

Point Buy Character
29 Points 1 over 28 of tougher campaign

9 Con
17 Dex +4 From Lvs +2 Race +5 Book+6 Gloves = 34
9 Str -2 Race = 7 +3 Book +6 Belt = 16
18 Wis +1 From Lvs +5 Book +2 Ioun Stone = 26
9 Int
9 Cha

AC 10 Base+1 Size+4 Class+12 Dex+8 Wis+8 Bracers+5 Natural+5 Deflect Ring+1 Haste = 54

When Fighting just the Lv 20 Fighter +1 From Dodge = AC 55

AC for Touch Attacks 10 Base+1 Size+4 Class+12Dex+8Wis+1Haste = AC 36 +1 Dodge = 37
( Couldn’t remember if Deflection goes to Touch but didn’t think so. )

50% Miss chance from Ring of Blinking ( Even if you can hit the AC )

DR 10 / Magic ( Even if you Hit AC and beat 50% miss Chance )

SR 30

HP ~80 ( This is low… yes… even the 40 from healing only brings it up to 120 )

Ki Strike (Su): Magic / Lawful / Adamantine

Bypasses Hardness as Adamantine

Melee Base +1 Size +3Str +1 While Haste
+20 / +20 / +15 / +10
Flurry of Blows +20 / +20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10
Weapon Finesse Dex to Unarmed light weapon instead of Str…& +1 Weapon Focus
Base +1 Size +12 Dex +1 While Haste
+30 / +30 / +25 / +20
Flurry of Blows +30 / +30 / +30 / +30 / +25 / +20

Thrown Base +12Dex + 1 Racial +1 While Haste
+29 / +29 / +24 / +19

Base Attack +15 / +10 / +5
Flurry of Blows +15 / +15 / +15 / +10 / +5

Small Monk Damage by Lv 20 = 2d8+3

+18 Fort base 12 -1Con +1 Racial+5 Cloak+1 Luck
+31 Ref base 12 +12Dex +1 Racial+5 Cloak+1 Luck Improved Evasion (Ex):
+27 Will base 12 +8Will +1 Racial+5 Cloak+1 Luck ( +2 vs Fear )

Speed 20 +60 Enhancement bonus from Class = 80 +30 = 110 for 10 Rounds / Day

Other Abilities:
• +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks, ( From Size : +4 Hide -4 Grapple )
• +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases
immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Timeless Body… Still die at time.. but no negatives for aging
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex):
at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.
+2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.
Ethereal for 20 Rounds / Day
dimension door, once per day
Wholeness of body… Heal self 40 HP / Day ( Su )

Lv 20 Standard Wealth 760,000 GP

137,500 Book +5 Dex
137,500 Book +5 Wis
82,500 Book +3 Str
36,000 Gloves of Dexterity: +6
64,000 Bracers of Armor: +8
50,000 Amulet of Natural Armor: +5
36,000 Belt of Giant Strength: +6
27,000 Ring of Blinking:
50,000 Ring of Protection: +5
12,000 Boots of Speed: Haste for 10 Round / Day
25,000 Cloak of Resistance: +5
58,000 Robe of Stars: travel physically to the Astral Plane, along with all that she is wearing or carrying.
+1 luck bonus on all saving throws.
six of the embroidered stars on the chest portion of the robe as +5 shuriken
12,000 Goggles of Night:
22,000 Mask of the Skull:
8,000 Ioun Stone Incandescent blue +2 Wis

leaves 2,500 GP for Random other stuff….

Feats:
Bonus Stunning Fist 20 / Day DC 28 ( 10 + ½ Lv +Wis )
Bonus Deflect Arrows
Bonus Improved Disarm +4
Lv 1 Dodge
Lv 3 Weapon Focus Unarmed +1
Lv 6 Weapon Finesse
Lv 9 Mobility +4 AC vs Attack of opertunity
Lv 12 Improved Sunder +4
Lv 15 Improved Grapple +4
Lv 18 Blind Fight


……………

Now please show me …. How the fighter in armor can get a Better AC using Core Races and Core Classes and Core Magic Items…. Because I don’t see how….. Maybe I am just missing it but I don’t see it….

By my Math the Core Fighter even with the best Str Best Items and Proper Feats can hope to get to like +40 to hit…

Str 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +5 Book +6 Belt = 36 = +13 to Hit +20 Base +5 Item +2 Feats = +40 to Hit.

Barbarian Lv 20 will have a Better Str the Fighter’s Base Attack but lose the +2 from Feats
Str 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +5 Book +6 Belt = 36 +8 Rage = 44 = +17 Hit +20 Base +5 Item = +42 to Hit

which only hits the AC 55 Monk ~25% of the time… and 50% of those are likely to be misses from the ring of blinking for a net of about 12% Hit Chance… But the argument was that my poor math skills are keeping me from seeing how the fighter always has a better AC than the Monk…. So please show me if this is true … because I do not see how in the core stuff… and if you let in non-core stuff than the Monk gets even better with Special Magic Items and such that are not in the book such as items that grant effects like the spell Divine Power….

The Best I can see a Lv 20 Fighter Getting for AC is 10 Base + 8 Full Plate +5 Enhanced +3 Dex of 16 + 4 Tower Shield +5 Enhanced +5 Natural Armor +5 Ring of protection = 45 +1 With Dodge +1 if also Small Size = AC 47 Even with +1 from Haste it brings it up to AC = 48… for 7 less than the 55 of the monk….

The Fighter’s Touch AC would be 10 + 3 for a Touch AC of 13 +1 Dodge +1 if small +1 if Haste = AC 16
16 touch AC vs the Touch AC 37 of the Monk or 21 lower…

Both can easily get the 50% miss chance of ring of blinking…. But the Fighter can’t get this 55 AC…. Not any way I see using core stuff…

The other cool thing here… is that the Fighter is maxed out by rules… the Monk is only maxed out by the cost of buying more stuff … like +6 Wisdom Item in the wrong body location… +5 Mighty Fists in Wrong Body Location…. Etc…. but sense these are not in the core rules… I didn’t use them…. But with more money the Lv 20 Monk can still get an even high AC the Fighter I don’t’ see how they can using core rules , magic , classes and limited to Lv 20.

The Monk’s to Hit could be improved if +5 Mighty Fists were taken but as the core Items go that would reduce AC… and this monk is about AC…. Compromises could be made to get the to Hit up or the Str up more etc… but this build was about the AC not balancing other things out or making the best to hit monk.… or making a “well Rounded” Monk… that may be better in some cases it may not in others… the question was about AC of the armored Fighter vs the Monk….

So I say Again…

Low Levels… a Commoner who rolls a hit could kill either one.
Mid Levels… the fighter pulls ahead because armor starts out cheaper and such…
By the End… The monk has passed up the best AC the Fighter can get to…

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Best I can see a Lv 20 Fighter Getting for AC is 10 Base + 8 Full Plate +5 Enhanced +3 Dex of 16 + 4 Tower Shield +5 Enhanced +5 Natural Armor +5 Ring of protection = 45 +1 With Dodge +1 if also Small Size = AC 47 Even with +1 from Haste it brings it up to AC = 48… for 7 less than the 55 of the monk….

So the fighter's AC is 48, vs the monk's 55.

And the fighter's melee attack bonus is +40, vs the monk's +30.

So the fighter has a 25% chance of hitting for, say, 1d10+22, vs the monk's 15% chance of hitting for 2d8+... 3?

-Hyp.

 

[beaver1024]

So the fighter's AC is 48, vs the monk's 55.

And the fighter's melee attack bonus is +40, vs the monk's +30.

So the fighter has a 25% chance of hitting for, say, 1d10+22, vs the monk's 15% chance of hitting for 2d8+... 3?

-Hyp.

The fighter's chance to kill the monk dramatically increases if he uses a brilliant energy weapon.

 

[Shin Okada]

And with grappling bonus of +15 (BAB) -4 (size) +3 (str) +4 (feat) =+18? Quite low as a 20th-level combatant.

Seems to be pretty much useless.