Nullzone
Explorer
Er, wha? The CB is smart enough to not add together same-type bonuses, sure, so you don't get +1 from both Master of Arms and Staff Expertise...but it will still add the secondary benefit of Staff Expertise just fine.
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Which feats are "feat tax"?
- Thread starter Abstruse
- Start date
Er, wha? The CB is smart enough to not add together same-type bonuses, sure, so you don't get +1 from both Master of Arms and Staff Expertise...but it will still add the secondary benefit of Staff Expertise just fine.
Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
1. Give them Improved Defenses at level 1.
2. Give them Weapliment Expertise in everything at level 5. (Not the 4.e Expertises.)
That is all. My own house rules are slightly different, but for the sake of simplicity there's your best fix.
2. Give them Weapliment Expertise in everything at level 5. (Not the 4.e Expertises.)
That is all. My own house rules are slightly different, but for the sake of simplicity there's your best fix.
In the strictest sense, a feat "tax" is one that's so essential to the way the character functions that the character cannot fulfill their fundamental role without the feat. Thus, "taxes" are build-specific, not universal. With that said, there are a few:
- Melee Training (where applicable)
- Chainmail for melee rangers
- Unarmored Agility for cloth users in melee range
Beyond that, the game is more fun for the players if you also include:
- Superior weapon or implement training (as appropriate)
- Versatile Expertise
- Some combination of NAD-boosters as described in previous posts
As you've already seen, there's no consensus as to what the "true" "taxes" are, but that's what I'll offer for your consideration. Good luck finding something that works for you!
- Melee Training (where applicable)
- Chainmail for melee rangers
- Unarmored Agility for cloth users in melee range
Beyond that, the game is more fun for the players if you also include:
- Superior weapon or implement training (as appropriate)
- Versatile Expertise
- Some combination of NAD-boosters as described in previous posts
As you've already seen, there's no consensus as to what the "true" "taxes" are, but that's what I'll offer for your consideration. Good luck finding something that works for you!
Mithreinmaethor
First Post
I dont understand this whole giving away feats for free to the players.
The game plays fine without doing this.
The game plays fine without doing this.
This.
The 'feat tax' brouhaha is silly. Some opinionated people noticed that the numbers don't add up, but completely ignored the other advantages PCs get. By all reports, epic tier is too easy, not the other way around.
Why not wait and see how the game plays in practice, then decide?
Nemesis Destiny
Adventurer
I think, perceived math issues aside, that some feats have an air of "tax" about them because they're so good that even though you don't need them, and the game plays fine without them, they're hard to ignore. You want to take them.
It becomes a tax, real or imagined, at that point, because then stuff like Linguist (or insert your favourite flavourful but mechanically subpar feat here), which maybe really character appropriate, just can't compete with +1-per-tier-to-hit-and-some-nice-side-benefits.
I like to focus on character, story, and background when I make a character, but I have a hard time justifying *not* taking some of the juicier combat feats. This varies based on the rest of the group and the campaign, obviously, but that is what I see as the crux of the issue.
I've got a couple ideas for dealing with it that I will be experimenting with in upcoming campaigns, but at the rate I'm going, 5th edition will be out by the time I have an answer that I like, and that works for the rest of my group.
So far, my answer to this is to eliminate the competition between combat feats and fluffy feats. Rather than give out freebie combat feats, I'm going to give out freebie fluff feats (at a rate yet to be determined). The fluff feats that are given out must only relate to non-combat elements of your character. No hit or damage bonuses, no skill powers, no multiclassing. Linguist? Sure. Envoy to the Fey? No problem. Heck, even Ritual Caster or Wild Talent might work.
As I said, I'm still experimenting with it, but that's my idea. I just need to figure out how many of those is 'enough.' I'm thinking one freebie at 1st level, and one at midpoint through each tier? Or that, plus another at 11 and 21? We'll see how it goes.
It becomes a tax, real or imagined, at that point, because then stuff like Linguist (or insert your favourite flavourful but mechanically subpar feat here), which maybe really character appropriate, just can't compete with +1-per-tier-to-hit-and-some-nice-side-benefits.
I like to focus on character, story, and background when I make a character, but I have a hard time justifying *not* taking some of the juicier combat feats. This varies based on the rest of the group and the campaign, obviously, but that is what I see as the crux of the issue.
I've got a couple ideas for dealing with it that I will be experimenting with in upcoming campaigns, but at the rate I'm going, 5th edition will be out by the time I have an answer that I like, and that works for the rest of my group.
So far, my answer to this is to eliminate the competition between combat feats and fluffy feats. Rather than give out freebie combat feats, I'm going to give out freebie fluff feats (at a rate yet to be determined). The fluff feats that are given out must only relate to non-combat elements of your character. No hit or damage bonuses, no skill powers, no multiclassing. Linguist? Sure. Envoy to the Fey? No problem. Heck, even Ritual Caster or Wild Talent might work.
As I said, I'm still experimenting with it, but that's my idea. I just need to figure out how many of those is 'enough.' I'm thinking one freebie at 1st level, and one at midpoint through each tier? Or that, plus another at 11 and 21? We'll see how it goes.
Guys. This thread was not started to debate the feat tax issue. It was started by a person seeking help making the game more fun in the manner he'd like to play it. If you don't have any ideas that will help the OP, please don't post. I'm only making this post in the hopes that it will curtail any more unconstructive and irrelevant discussion.
The Human Target
Adventurer
In my opinion it plays better with them.
So as long as you aren't playing in one of our games, its not something you have to understand really.
Destil
Explorer
I print all of my monsters via the monster builder, so I drop their defenses and I've banned standard expertiese. For the new expertiese feats I simply deny the feat bonus to attack if the player takes it.
Still not sure what to do about PC NADs, though... I was leaning towards making any +3 or better neck grant an extra +1 and any +5 or better grant an extra +2.
Still not sure what to do about PC NADs, though... I was leaning towards making any +3 or better neck grant an extra +1 and any +5 or better grant an extra +2.
At first look, add Improved Defenses to the list, and I like this option.
At second look, why not just say at level 1 everyone starts with an extra feat?
Currently I have a few problems with expertise feats. Some characters have excellent expertise options, like light blade and spear users, while others have not been supported at all like holy symbol and totem users as well as weapliment users like swordmage and sorcerer.
I still am going with my (now very old) house rule of everyone gets weapon expertise and implement expertise for whatever weapons and implements they may be using. And I do not allow any of the essentials expertise feats. I feel those feats given as a bonus would create an unfair playing ground for the shaman who uses a totem, the sorcerer who uses a dagger, and the paladin who uses a holy symbol for half his powers.
I also don't particularly like the way racial attack powers, and some PP attack powers lag behind the attack bonus curve.
At this point, if I was starting a new game, I think I'd just throw out all the expertise feats, improved/paragon/robust defenses, and lower monster defenses by 1/2/3 at H/P/E, and lower monster attacks vs FRW by 1/2 at P/E.
And if they would make a divine boon or some other unslotted item that gives +1 item bonus to all damage rolls at each half tier (maybe levels 3/8/13/18/23/28), I'd house rule that as a free item for everyone.
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