• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Which is better for tabletop-online? Klooge or Fantasy Grounds?

Which is better?


DMFTodd

DM's Familiar
>> 1. Ease of learning the system for the DM and players. You shouldn't have to know ANYTHING technical to use a program

Good luck with that. The players-side of things is usually easy but the DM is going to have to know his IP address and know a little bit about firewalls if he's running one. The programs that are web-only (ScreenMonkey for example), might get you around that.

>> 2. Absolute compatability with 3.5
>> 3. Room for a couple of house rules, supplemental classes, feats

I don't think any of these programs really deal with the rules of the game. They just let you roll dice one way or another.

>> 4. Faster combats than tabletop

Ahh, that does seperate some of the programs. Klooge's double-click to open the die roller, click the attack/damage you want, is very fast. As I noted, especially for high level play, I find klooge faster than tabletop.

>> 5. Communications with players and NPC's should either show the players' face or a picture of their PC when they speak so that you know who's talking without guessing.

I'm able to recognize the player's voices. If you're playing at the table, do you have to see their lips moving to know who's talking? I don't see this as an issue.

>> 6. Ability to place "2D" elements that mark 3-D things

In klooge, you can set the altitude for an icon, a blue bar appears next to them, and the program calculates the distance for you taking into account altitude differences. You can also draw on the maps you've scanned in so you could for example, mark the area of the cave that is 20' higher.

>> 7. Large visual area for the action.

Klooge can hide all of the toolbars and menu so that your entire screen is just the map.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

heruca

Explorer
DMFTodd said:
Klooge can hide all of the toolbars and menu so that your entire screen is just the map.

Is there a hotkey to do this? The only way I managed to hide everything but the map was to change about 4 settings in the preferences screen, and even then I still had a window frame and menubar on the screen. That's not ideal if you're wanting to use Klooge with a projector in a face-to-face game.
 

DMFTodd

DM's Familiar
Oops, you're right. 1 will hide the tree on the left and 2 hides the toolbar at the top. That leaves you with the title & menu bar at the top and the icon and mini-map at the bottom for klooge. The rest of your screen is then the map.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Klooge rocks. We have used it for 2 years now, and our DM is probably in the top 5 in reporting errors and requesting new features to the design team.

We actually use Klooge with all players phsycially present in the room. It makes the DMs job much easier. He projects it up on a wall, and the players have a wireless mouse that gets passed from player to player on their turn to move their character. We see all light radiuses exactly as they are supposed to work. We see all spell ranges exactly to the foot. We can move anywhere we want without the impediment of 5-foot squares, because we know exactly what is 5 feet away from us at all times. We know exactly when line of effect is blocked, and when it is not. We can see the actual module map of the actual room we are in, in color, right in front of us (and other areas we have discovered, though not those areas we have not been to yet).

We do have one player that is playing long distance right now. He is using ventrillo I think for the voice portion, and logging in remotely to the server.

Klooge rocks.
 

moon_wizard

First Post
In my game, I use the following setup:

* Klooge - For text chat, maps, characters, combat and more.
* Ventrilo - For voice chat
* PCGen - For character management

Just like you are doing, I checked out all of the programs out there, before choosing one to game with. I wasn't as much concerned about cost, but with capabilities.

For Klooge, I found that the tabletop could be slightly confusing and cumbersome in some ways, but overall the program provided excellent support for D&D (our game) and each time we play I put a little more work into the data files to add more automation and/or house rules. I like all the features, but most of all I like the ability to build in all the rules we use. I found Fantasy Ground to be too light on rules support and not as extensible, Battlegrounds looks like it will be awhile just to catch up with the others (though with some good ideas), OpenRPG was a confused mess to install and get working, and the others were generally rudimentary. BTW, the Battlegrounds site has some good links to all the various tabletop apps out there.

We use PCGen to generate characters, since I have found it to be the most flexible program out there for developing characters. Then, I created an XML template to export via PCGen to Klooge-compatible XML files which I then import. So, all the character/rules setup from PCGen makes it into Klooge.

For voice chat, I also checked out a number of services. We started with Skype since we had 5 people (limit for voice conference at the time), but I found that it required a fair amount of bandwidth so that it would break up fairly often when transferring maps. I think it was using peer-to-peer conferencing. So, I got a Ventrilo server which works great. Plus, we have one user with a baby who can use the text-to-speech feature to chat speak to us.

Good gaming,
John
 

garrion_sw

First Post
As an owner of OpenRPG, Klooge, and Fantasy Grounds let me try to give my opinions of each. Let me start off with the fact that I play your standard d20 fare which is supported by all these but my real pleasure is in The Riddle of Steel which is not as easy to use in some of these programs. I don't use any voice programs so I can't speak about those.

Open RPG - I have been using this program for about 7 years, hard to recall exacly. First off this program is free. However, in this fact it lacks some of the glam that the others have, but yet oddly still has the best dice roller available.

To start off this is not the easiest program to get running. It requires the installation of three programs to become functional, however all of these are open source and free to get.

Once you are installed there in a handy guide that loads into the tree with several templates that serve as character sheets. There are many other templates that serve as macro nodes that can be used to build your own design if you wish. Everything that you do is contained locally and not shared with the DM automatically, which some may frown on, but they can be sent to the GM and other players with a few simple clicks of the mouse. The macros set up within the character sheets allow for quick and easy rolls to be made when called for. All of the features are equal in complexity for players and GM's, though the GM does have control over some features that are locked out for players. Anyone can host the server and the GM, Players, and Lurkers can be determined at any point during the game without the need to shut down and reload.

The dice roller is fantastic and very versatile. You can play just about any system with any combination of dice rolls and as long as you use the proper syntax in the roll command it will spit out a result. Want a simple 4d6 roll with the total, bam. Want a percentile roll, bam. Want a dice pool roll vs a target number (the hard one to get support for), bam, the number of successes are given, not the total of the numerical roll. If you want to get fancy and roll vs a target and then reroll a "10" as an extra die, it does it. If you want to have that "10" reroll itself and compound for a result >10, it does that too. I just can't praise the dice roller of this program enough.

One of the big downfalls with OpenRPG is that everything used in the map area has to be hosted on the web. You can not load a map or minis contained locally. This requires the use of a web server that you type in the URL in order to load the map. Not a major deal but with multiple large camps you may run out of server space. The mapping aspect of the program supports drawing and fog. You can zoom in and out and set the scale of the grid, which can be square or hex. It allows the placement of minis which can snap into place or be free-floating and also resized to match the scale of the map. It also has facing and movement directional arrows, but you can't rotate the mini itself. If your mini square this not an issue but it is is elongated, it could lead to misrepresentation. Minis and maps can be saved to the program tree but it is really just a quick link to the URL so that it can be loaded easily.

The chat aspect of the program is as full-featured as anyone could expect. It supports OOC comments, emotes, aliases and multicolor text to distinguish between speakers. It doesn't place the speakers mini before their text but does state their name which is good enough for me. A chat log can be saved so that you can refer back to game events.

There are several plug-ins that allow special functions. One of these is a combat initiative tracker that is very handy.

The program is very generic and doesn't contain any source materials for reference. It doesn't auto-calculate results beyond the dice rolls. Everything is up to the players and GM to keep track of by making changes to their character nodes. However, anyone can use the program and conect with it without any cost.

Klooge - I have been using this program for a few months. This is the most feature-rich program I have seen. However, its strengths are highly tuned to only d20 games.

The program is easy get running through a simple installer and you select between GM or Player mode when you execute and you select the game system definition file you want to load. The program requires licencing, though 2 people with demo versions can connect to test out the demo camp. The designer made it player friendly, in the fact that the GM can purchase "floating" licences so that a player only needs to have the demo installed to connect and play with him. This removes the burden that every player has to buy the program, which makes it hard to find players sometimes.

The game definition files define and control the different aspects specific between systems and also defines the character sheet and dice macros. Every change that you make to the character sheet is shared with the DM automatically and vice versa. The macros set up within the definition file allow for quick and easy rolls to be made when called for and are linked to the information that you place within the character sheet. The GM hosts the session, has control over the features, and can customize through a preferences menu what the players are able to alter. The only task that the players have to worry about is filling in their sheets, however things are MUCH more complex for the GM who wants to deviate from the core 3.5 rule-set. To create new game system definitions or alter an existing one for house rules, a good knowledge of XML is needed. There are also a nice scripting feature but you must of course know how to write scripts to use anything beyond what is included.

The program comes with definitions for 2nd Ed. AD&D, D&D 3.0 & 3.5, Hero, and d6 games. There are user created definitions easy to download and install for GURPS, HarnMaster, and a few other variations to the core d20 system like Star Wars and Forgotten Realms. (I may have mixed a few of these around, but they are what I have currently installed.) I have been trying to create a definition for my Riddle of Steel games but have not had success do to limited dice roller functionality.

The dice roller is pretty basic. You can do your standard fare of dx rolls but the program calculates the total, no variation allowed. You can of course add modifiers and roll vs a DC and it will auto-calculate and spit out the result along with "Success" if you made it. It claims to have dice pool support and does to a small extent, but not nearly as much as I need and OpenRPG provides. If you roll the pool, it calculates the total and not the number of successes. You can ignore this and manually compute the successes, but this eliminates the availability of many cool features I am going to talk about later.

The mapping feature of Klooge is outstanding. You can load a map or minis contained locally and create entire encounters to be activated with a few clicks. The mapping aspect of the program supports drawing and 2 versions of fog. One version covers what is unexplored but reveals it as long as you have been there. The second version only reveals what is currently within the characters visual range and re-hides it once he moves out of the area. You can zoom in and out and set the scale of the grid, which can be square or hex. It allows the placement of minis which can snap into place or be free-floating and also resized to match the scale of the map. It also has facing and movement directional arrows, you can rotate the mini itself, and adjust altitude for elevation differences. Minis and maps are saved to the program tree and easily brought to the screen for play. You can link maps to each other, produce player handouts, and link many other things to the map that are all accessable to the players in order to dispense information about the environment.

The chat aspect of the program is as full-featured as anyone could expect. It supports OOC comments, emotes, aliases and multicolor text to distinguish between speakers. It can also be set up to place the speakers mini before their text under the preferences menu and a chat log can also be saved.

Klooge contains a great number of additional features. They are too numerous to describe individually, but I will name a few. It auto calculates hits and misses based on roll reults and the designated Target's AC value entered into their character sheet. It auto-calculates damage based on the damage roll and causes a pop-up to display for the GM and target so that the damage can be directly applied to their Hit Points. Character sheets can be set up with drop down menus full of content if the GM has taken the time to define these in the Definition file he uses. Spells are cast with the click of a single button, displaying a text item, rolling damage, auto-calculating the save defined in the spell macro against that on the target's character sheet, and applying the defined effect. Lighting and spell effects have nice visualizations on the map and durations are tracked. There is a combat initiative tracker and a calendar feature that displays the passage of time to players as the GM alters it.

The program is very feature rich which causes a bit of a learning curve and most of it is only easily applied to the packaged Definition files. It doesn't contain any source materials for reference. It does cost, though this can be a burden that only the GM and not the players have to take on.

Fantasy Grounds - I have been using this program for about one month. This is a generic program without the features of Klooge or the versatility of OpenRPG, but it is visually pleasing and simple to use.

The program is easy get running through a simple installer and you select between GM or Player mode when you execute and you select the game system definition file you want to load. The program requires licencing to play though there is a demo that you can use to test out the interface. Every person must have a licenced installation in order to play. This makes it tough on groups wanting to try the program out because everyone has to fork out the cash and sometimes you have people unwilling to do that.

The game definition files define the character sheet and information supplied within the game. Every change that you make to the character sheet is shared with the DM automatically and vice versa. The GM hosts the session and has control over the features. The only task that the players have to worry about is filling in their sheets and making rolls, however things are MUCH more complex for the GM who wants to deviate from the core rule-set. To create new game system definitions or alter an existing one for house rules, a good knowledge of XML is needed.

The program comes with a definition for basic SRD D&D games. There are user created definitions easy to download and install for a few other d20 variations and character sheet layouts.

The dice roller is pretty basic. You have a complete set of 3D dice laying on the desktop. You pick up the dice and toss them using the mouse. It displays the results of the roll and any modifier you included. It will auto-calculate and spit out the total of the roll if you wish to have it. You can drag this result over to the character sheet if it is displayed and have it alter the values there. For the dice pools needed in The Riddle of Steel, you can visually inspect the die results and manually compute the successes just like you would at the table.

The mapping feature of FG are adequate for most gaming needs. You can load a map or minis contained locally with a few clicks. The mapping aspect of the program supports drawing and fog.You can zoom in and out and set the scale of the grid, which can be only be square. It allows the placement of tokens and you can rotate the token itself. Maps are saved to the program tree and easily brought to the screen for play.

The chat aspect of the program is as full-featured as anyone could expect. It supports OOC comments, emotes, aliases and multicolor text to distinguish between speakers. A log is kept of the game by the GM.

The program features are not very robust compared to other programs but supplies everything and more that you would have available to you at a table top game. Other than the character sheet definitions and reference material, it is very generic and could be applied to just about any setting. It has a fairly low learning curve and contains SRD source materials for reference which is handy for games that use that. The cost is a burden that the GM and players all have to accept.

I'm sure i missed a few things and have included stuff already described in more detail by other posters. I hope this gives you an idea of the functionality of these programs though. As a side note I have played with the demo to Battlegrounds and it has many of the features of the programs listed above. However, I'm waiting on the final demo to draw any conclusions because something may be added that I have not experienced yet.

Garrion
 

heruca

Explorer
::applauds::

Great post! Seems like a fair and balanced review.

So, Garrion, do you have a personal favorite? Or does the game system you're playing determine which tool you use?
 

garrion_sw

First Post
heruca said:
::applauds::

Great post! Seems like a fair and balanced review.

So, Garrion, do you have a personal favorite? Or does the game system you're playing determine which tool you use?
It is a rough tie between OpenRPG and Klooge. There are are a couple issues that would swing my opinion one way or the other. Much depends on the system played though.

For d20 games Klooge has it hands down. For my Riddle of Steel games (which is my preferred system) OpenRPG provides the dice functionality that I need. I have been working with Klooge to make it more "Riddle-friendly" but lack of the level of dice pool support that I need makes it very rough.

If Klooge were to implement a fully functional dice roller like OpenRPG, it would be the winner. If OpenRPG would support local file hosting and drop the need for everything to be web-based, it would be preferred.

OpenRPG being free is a huge plus for alot of my players. That is why Klooge comes in as a tie, because I have purchased licencing for a total of 5 players to connect with me. If they had to fork out the cash I would never get them to use it.

I like alot of what I have played with on your demo. There are a few weaknesses that I spotted at first impression, but I won't go into that here till I have a chance to really give the final release a work out.

Garrion
 

allenrmaher

First Post
I have used kLoOge and OpenRPG for non d20 and d20 games.

OpenRPG is a great starting place, because the buy in is so little. I am a fan of open source in general and this product is highly functional. For people who use MERP, Rolemaster and other non d20 games it is a very nice program.

The limitations have been well stated, but if you can handle XML and HTML and put up your own apache server (a trivial exercise for any linux user)... it is not bad at all.

I almost always now use kLoOge... I run a regualr HARP (from ICE) game and play in a few others. There was not much support for it in the beginning, but myself and a few others really put in the effort to write a good definition and we squeezed the non d20 system in pretty well. The feature set is great, we have even begun adding java scripting to do much of the calculations for us so that the HARP. (very nice) The klooge community is good (as is the openrpg one) and support is usually swift. There are still many things you have to learn to adapt a non d20 system to klooge but it can be done and for us it has been good.

I have tried numerous times to get FG to work... but unfortunately it is a windows only product, which is sad because it looks decent. My gaming group has three flavours of *nix users so a windows only program that can't run under wine is out of the question for us.

Try the free one first, then play through the demos... there are lots of comunity resources available for the various systems so keep your eyes open.
 


Remove ads

Top