Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[dnabre]

You see that isn't true dnabre. The MT can select gear that works well for him, specifically. Like for instance the Monk-Belt.
Really 3 levels of caster level are worth 45000 GP. It's not "insignificant" but it's not that much money, particularly at the higher levels. The single classed characters often rely upon spell trigger items like wands and scrolls that the MT simply doesn't need because of his raw spell capacity.
The gear, caster level, and stat dependency arguments have been dispelled.
The net result is you're left with the value of a higher level of spellcasting versus the all powerful divine/arcane mix for lower level spells.
We've been here before, it's 2nd edition demi-human casters all over again. It wasn't balanced then, it isn't balanced now.

The full caster can select gear that works for him too. A monk belts does even more for full cleric (who'll likely have a higher wisdom) (not getting into the brokenness of the monk belt). My point is those few items like the monk-belt which can help the MT but not one of the full casters are the only differences in gear. Spell-trigger items might be handy, but you have to make that argument. Your MT above doesn't use any spell trigger items true, but neither does the full caster that was posted (which isn't realistic for either in a normal campaign).

Every gold piece a MT can spend upping his caster level or spell DCs the full caster can do as well (better with DC because he only has one caster stat). Saying the MT's caster level isn't an issue because he'll up it with ioun stones and spell penetration is disingenuous . A full caster can do the same thing, and he's not starting out behind.

45,000gp is a hell of lot of money for anybody below 16th level. It is worth 3 casters levels? For somebody, it's quite an investment.

If you want to argue that MT doesn't have to depend on spell trigger items as much, make that argument (claiming something isn't an argument). Spell trigger items are cheap though, saying your MT doesn't have spend money for the wand of cure light isn't really saying much though. Please do elaborate on that point, if you think it's worthwhile. It's one of the few relevant points you've made.

 

[Kem]

We've been here before, it's 2nd edition demi-human casters all over again. It wasn't balanced then, it isn't balanced now.

False. Its not the same, and you know it. This is openly dishonest.

In 1e/2e the dual spellcaster was a single level behind until you hit level 10.

The Myth is 3 levels behind starting at 4th level.

In 1e/2e you took the best of the two classes in saves, and the average in HP.

In 1e/2e the wizard would be level 10 the Myth would be level 9/9.

The Wizard would have approx 25+ UP TO 2 per level, and getting that +2 is harder then in 3e. Do think you needed a 16 to get it.

The Myth would have approx 35 + the same for con. The Wizard would have wizard save, the Myth would have the better of the 2 in each catagory. Thats more then 30% extra HP.

They would both be casting the same level spells. They would both have everything else the same as there was no item creation feats.

It is not the same. This is the weakest arguement against the Myth.

 

[ThirdWizard]

You see that isn't true dnabre. The MT can select gear that works well for him, specifically. Like for instance the Monk-Belt.

Which works even better for a druid.

Really 3 levels of caster level are worth 45000 GP.

You're going to have to explain this one. Compare a 5th level wizard to an 8th level wizard, spell-wise: one more 1st level spell, one more 2nd level spell, two more third level and two 4th level spells that the 5th level wizard has none of.

The MT makes up for this by gaining the ability to cast cleric spells of these levels. I say it balances out, eventually - around level 12 or so. But, I don't see how that relates to gp values.

The gear, caster level, and stat dependency arguments have been dispelled.

Eh? Multiple Ability Dependancy is still an issue for the MT and not the straight class, unless you are a straight class that has MAD, like the favored soul.

We've been here before, it's 2nd edition demi-human casters all over again. It wasn't balanced then, it isn't balanced now.

Not even close... See, its because of the way the xp tables worked in 2ED. Take a cleric/wizard in 2ED in a party with a wizard and a cleric. Lets look at the xp total of 225,000. This puts the priest character at 9th level, and the wizard at 10th level. This puts the cleric/wizard at 8th/8th. Lower levels are worse, with 40,000 xp the wizard is 6th, the cleric is 6th, and the wizard/cleric is 5th/5th.

See, because xp increased so radically from level to level, even halving your xp between your two classes generally put you 1-2 levels below where a straight classed character of that level would be. When you need 1 million xp for level X and 2 million xp for level X+1, then splitting xp really isn't that bad. That's why multiclassing in 2ED was so powerful, because you weren't far behind at all in terms of raw power.

The MT doesn't have this benefit. He is always behind, and at lower levels much further behind.

Third Wizard in the standard wiz,fig,clr,rog party you don't need a cleric + wizard in the 4 person party. You could have an MT + druid. They win by versatility alone. Or an MT + paladin. Or an MT + monk.

But, the MT still has to choose a roll. Is he the party healer? The artillery? A buffer (<-- this is the roll MTs excel at by the way). You can't do everything at once, so it doesn't really matter if you can cast both arcane and divine spells. To heal, you have to be near melee, which puts the MT at a disadvantage to a cleric in the same roll. He doesn't excel at artillery compared to a wizard because of the lower caster level (for SR) and lower DCs for his spells.

Here's the crux:
He has to choose what he is going to do. Just like a fighter can't be both offensive and defensive at the same time, a MT can't be both a healer and a blaster at the same time.

Now, he can one battle take over healing, and one battle take over artillery, but in both these circumstances he will not be as good at either roll as a straight classed character. This is the balancing factor. He can switch rolls. That is the balancing factor: more versatility fpr less power.

Or you can add more "hybrid" classes to the arena as well. Arcane tricksters, eldricht knights and what have you. As more characters overlap in ability their versatility increases and that is real power.

I do not agree.

It's 2nd edition all over again.

I belive I pointed out why this is incorrect already, so I won't go into it again.

The standard party casts 2 6th level spells fighter and rogue charge into the fray. The hybrid party casts 4 5th level spells or does the same as the standard. They just have that much more versatility.

And, here we run into this again. 4 5th level spells are inferior to 2 6th level spells + fighter and a rogue. Heck, 4 5th level spells are probably inferior to just the 2 6th level spells themselves. You gain nothing by throwing around more low level spells. And note, that the Eldritch Knight won't be casting 5th level spells unless he's more wizard than fighter. Which isn't a good thing for a party.

If the cleric goes down, well the standard party is in a real bind. If the wizard with teleport goes down the standard party is in a real bind. No one cares in the hybrid party, because more than one person can teleport, more than one person can raise the dead, there's arcane hierophants and mystic theurges and arcane tricksters....

That doesn't work, because with a MT you don't even have teleport when you would with a wizard. Not to mention Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters.

 

[Kem]

It's 2nd edition all over again. The standard party casts 2 6th level spells fighter and rogue charge into the fray. The hybrid party casts 4 5th level spells or does the same as the standard. They just have that much more versatility.
If the cleric goes down, well the standard party is in a real bind. If the wizard with teleport goes down the standard party is in a real bind. No one cares in the hybrid party, because more than one person can teleport, more than one person can raise the dead, there's arcane hierophants and mystic theurges and arcane tricksters....

More dishonesty.

That Hybrid party cannot cast the same spells as the Normal Party. Not until 3 levels after it.

In the Hybrid Party, they can only raise the dead 3 levels after the normal party can do it.

They can't Teleport for 3 levels after the normal party can do it.

Getting the cleric raised from the dead can be done via scroll (rogue), friendly spellcaster in a town, or they can just roll up another.

Your arguement isn't that they are too powerful, its that they can do too much.

Then we can discuss that in reality, you have a mere +2 caster level difference, 2 extra feats , and a handful of 6th level spells versus a metric truckload of lower level ones and a character is significantly greater in survivability, in saves, AC, hp and well.

Interesting. Thats all you think the wizard has?

The Caster Level difference is 3. Below is a nice list of the top 4 spell levels, and how the 2 compare on just the spells listed in the spells per day list.

7th : 4(Wiz  +1), 3(Wiz  +2), 2(Myth +2), 1(Myth +3)
8th : 4(Wiz  +2), 3(Even --), 2(Myth +2), 1(Myth +3)
9th : 5(Wiz  +1), 4(Wiz  +2), 3(Myth +2), 2(Myth +3) 
10th: 5(Wiz  +2), 4(Even --), 3(Myth +2), 2(Myth +3)

That should be enough to show the pattern that follows until you hit 19 with the wizard (no 10th level spells).  You trade 1.5 of the highest level and 1 of the higest level (on average) for 2 of the 3rd highest level and 3 of the 4th highest level spells.

You can make the 2nd highest and lower spells higher in your favor, but then you trade even MORE highest level spells.  And there is still every odd level where you don't have [i]either[/i] of the 2 highest level spells.

The wizard has 3 caster levels, and 1.5 [i]spell levels[/i] on you.  Those 1.5 spell levels mean that you have to wait till level 12 to teleport, the NORMAL party does it at level 9 when you can't even cast greater invisibility, divine power, or your Empowered Scorching Ray.  The Normal Wizard is already empowering Fireball, casting teleport wall of force, or whatever other [i]5th level spells[/i] they happen to have.  Enjoy your 3rd level spells.

There are things the Hybrid party can do that the normal party cannot, and there are things the normal party can do that the hybrid can't.  Its a trade off.

 

[DungeonMaster]

False. Its not the same, and you know it. This is openly dishonest.

No, it isn't. It's a fair comparison. The MT *might* and I say might because it depends on how you play him, might be weaker at lower levels but there was never anything as ridiculous as the 8th/9th casting crap at higher levels. At least there were level caps.
And further non-core PrC make it 9th/9th which goes well beyond any travesty 2nd edition did.

In 1e/2e the dual spellcaster was a single level behind until you hit level 10.

Not true, the XP tables and XP bonuses for high stats made gaps.

In 1e/2e you took the best of the two classes in saves, and the average in HP.

So? In 3.5 you get tons of save bonuses and get cleric HD and cleric starting hp?

 

[DungeonMaster]

More dishonesty
That Hybrid party cannot cast the same spells as the Normal Party. Not until 3 levels after it.

You aren't even integrating what I write. You merely whip off your rant with what selective portions you're imagined exist. Note carefully I said the hybrid party would cast 5th and the normal party would cast 6th. The self same situation as we've discussed for pages now.
The accusations of "dishonesty" are nothing short of laughable considering all the crap you people have been trying to pull in terms of rule abuses and twistings.

In the Hybrid Party, they can only raise the dead 3 levels after the normal party can do it.
They can't Teleport for 3 levels after the normal party can do it.

So? so? so? They can all do it?

Getting the cleric raised from the dead can be done via scroll (rogue), friendly spellcaster in a town, or they can just roll up another.

Wow that's a fantastic way of proving your point. "They can just roll up another X each time they get stuck". *rolls eyes*

Your arguement isn't that they are too powerful, its that they can do too much.

Versatility is power. A flesh to stone spell is worthless against an iron golem. A magical sword can do the trick. Sorry Kem, versatility is power . That's the basis of 3E multiclassing, or at least it was.

The Caster Level difference is 3. Below is a nice list of the top 4 spell levels, and how the 2 compare on just the spells listed in the spells per day list.

I don't understand your list. You're going to have to write it out clearer. 10th what? Level, spell level?

The Normal Wizard is already empowering Fireball, casting teleport wall of force, or whatever other 5th level spells they happen to have. Enjoy your 3rd level spells.

Will do m'lady. Especially with a metamagic rod or two. And I get multiple 4th just next level and you're still at 5th. I can wait. Your 5th level magic seems pretty tame in prospect of 2 4th. Oh the shades of 2nd edition... And in a real game you'de have to pay for more high level spells too, incidentally.

There are things the Hybrid party can do that the normal party cannot, and there are things the normal party can do that the hybrid can't. Its a trade off.

Advantage hybrid. It's not a fair trade.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Versatility is power. A flesh to stone spell is worthless against an iron golem. A magical sword can do the trick. Sorry Kem, versatility is power . That's the basis of 3E multiclassing, or at least it was.

Specialization is power. Versatility is somewhat useful.

Unless it is your oppinion that bards are the most powerful class in the PHB.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Specialization is power. Versatility is somewhat useful.
Unless it is your oppinion that bards are the most powerful class in the PHB.

A lone bard is arguably the most survivable class in the PHB.
Specialisation is only power when you have others covering your weaknesses or you never confront your weakness.
It is conditional power.
The most highly evolved dinosaurs lost to the muskrat. The evolution of your character may very well be no different.

 

[ThirdWizard]

We are talking about a party of four PC of the same level in challenging encounters here. Or at least I am.

 

[Kem]

No, it isn't. It's a fair comparison. The MT *might* and I say might because it depends on how you play him, might be weaker at lower levels but there was never anything as ridiculous as the 8th/9th casting crap at higher levels. At least there were level caps.
And further non-core PrC make it 9th/9th which goes well beyond any travesty 2nd edition did.

Um, 9/7 or 8/8. Please know what you are talking about.

And non-core? NON-CORE? We aren't talking NON-CORE. And the Ur-Priest is questionable without considering the Myth. Same with any other class that allows the myth to hit 9/9.

This is about the Mystic Theurg, not any of those other classes.

Not true, the XP tables and XP bonuses for high stats made gaps.

Absolutly true. It was a 10% bonus for having a 16. Thats it. Thats not even part of a level. Since until you hit 10ish each level was double the previous level. That 10% bonus let the single class character get 1 free level per 10 after level 10, and let them hit the next level sooner. Thats it.

And at about 10 the cleric and wizard even out, the wizard ends up taking more xp per level after that, while the cleric takes less.

So? In 3.5 you get tons of save bonuses and get cleric HD and cleric starting hp?

You have less HP now, and worse saves. Its part of that "Its not the same as in 1e/2e".