Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Storm Raven]

I might say that not just you have failed to see my point, repeatedly. And the rest of the time there's a willingness to ignore it, which is intellectually dishonest.

Says the man who doesn't understand the difference between magic items and characters. Says the man who doesn't understand how useless his Urge build would be at 4th level, or 5th level, or 6th level, or 7th level, or 8th level, or 9th level, or 10th level, or 11th level. How valuable are you to the party again?

If we're all playing fair ball, and I'll retract my claims of dishonesty, I'de like to see your "total spell levels *analysis*" for the MT+cohort vs. wis+cohort. And claim total crushing victory for the Urge.

The MT+cohort catch up, somewhat. BUt I can't do an analysis until you fix the problems with the Urge/Demiurge build. Which you still haven't done.

I'de also like to see some admission that the addition of druidic magic is a crushing advantage.

It might be an advantage, but since you calauclated your Leadership score wrong, we can't figure out what level your cohort is supposed to be. You also didn't tell us when you recruited your cohort, so we don't know what effect he'[s had over the course of your Urge's career (here's a hint, the Wizard-Cohort pair were brought together when the Wizard was 6th level, and the Cleric was 4th level. You can't afford the items that allow you to attract a reasonably high level cohort until you are 12th level).

And that my caster level to break SR is equal to your wizards.

There is much more to caster level than breaking SR. Besides, if the Wizard gets rid of his worthless Craft Rod feat and replace it with Spell Penetration, he moves ahead again.

And I'll spend the remaining cash not on the rod but on a bigger headband of intellect so the DC is the same.

And now you don't have any access to the precious metamagic rods you love. And you can't afford the more powerful headband anyway with the cash you have left. You have to give something else up too.

And that despite all claims to the contrary, your wizard's robe of the archmagi isn't any less "contrived" than my character's gear in terms of when you could acquire it, friendly high level wizards lending you their spellbooks not withstanding.

The difference is that the wizard's power isn't dependent upon that item at levels 4-11. Without them, your MT sucks. With them, he barely catches up.

Then we can discuss that in reality, you have a mere +2 caster level difference, 2 extra feats , and a handful of 6th level spells versus a metric truckload of lower level ones and a character is significantly greater in survivability, in saves, AC, hp and well.

I think you are delusional. A "mere" +2 caster level and access to higher level spells? Your saves, AC, and hp are all significantly worse than your "build" suggests without your items (i.e. from levels 4-11). If you want to talk about survivability, I don't think your MT will survive to reach 12th level. He certainly won't be useful to anyone before then.

And I hope you've figured out a way to deal with those dread spectres. And don't get caught flat-footed.

 

[Storm Raven]

A lone bard is arguably the most survivable class in the PHB.

And now you've just proven you exist in a reality different from normal humans.

Specialisation is only power when you have others covering your weaknesses or you never confront your weakness.

D&D is, by its nature a team game. Other to cover your weaknesses is the standard.

The most highly evolved dinosaurs lost to the muskrat. The evolution of your character may very well be no different.

Actually, they likely lost to meteors falling from space. But that is no more relevant to this topic than your claim concerning dinosaurs.

 

[Storm Raven]

You're going to have to explain this one. Compare a 5th level wizard to an 8th level wizard, spell-wise: one more 1st level spell, one more 2nd level spell, two more third level and two 4th level spells that the 5th level wizard has none of.

He means that you can craft three orange ioun stones for 45,000 gp (leaving aside the fact that it would also cost him 3,600 xp, he likes to gloss over losing experience points to craft things).

He still hasn't focused on the fact that you can't benefit from three orange ioun stones at once, since you cannot gain a bonus from the same source multiple times. But that is where his silly "three caster levels is worth 45,000 gp" argument comes from.

And he doesn't even begin to account for the fact that he doesn't have the ability to craft them (and certainly can't afford them otherwise) before he hits 12th level.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Says the man who doesn't understand the difference between magic items and characters. Says the man who doesn't understand how useless his Urge build would be at 4th level, or 5th level, or 6th level, or 7th level, or 8th level, or 9th level, or 10th level, or 11th level. How valuable are you to the party again?

Uh-huh. We'll just have to "pretend" the odd levels don't exist. Or the sorceror core class.

The MT+cohort catch up, somewhat. BUt I can't do an analysis until you fix the problems with the Urge/Demiurge build. Which you still haven't done.

There's nothing wrong with the build.

You can't afford the items that allow you to attract a reasonably high level cohort until you are 12th level).

Really? I can't afford a cloak of charisma +2 at level 6? I guess your wizard was naked until level 11ish when he bought his robe? This discussion is pointless. You're unwilling to even do your own stupid analysis over again. ---> Intellectual Dishonesty.
Heck you're not even willing to pay for your spells or take the leadership hit from having a familiar so cry me a river.

The difference is that the wizard's power isn't dependent upon that item at levels 4-11. Without them, your MT sucks. With them, he barely catches up.

I guess that's as close as an admission of defeat as I'm going to get.

And I hope you've figured out a way to deal with those dread spectres. And don't get caught flat-footed.

Good old evocation.

 

[DungeonMaster]

"Sorry Bill, your cleric's dead and we can't bring him back. Go home."
Or is it...
"Sorry Bill, your cleric's dead and we can't bring him back. You can roll up another character and I'll work you in, but it can't be a cleric. Anything else is fine, but you're not allowed to play another cleric. Even if you enjoyed your last one."

Nope, it's more like:
"Well let's see if the party can escape here on their own, without their cleric as you might all need new characters."

 

[dnabre]

Really? I can't afford a cloak of charisma +2 at level 6? I guess your wizard was naked until level 11ish when he bought his robe?

Looking back, you've apparently fixed the math with his gear. I was off originally, don't know if people had noticed that you'd fixed it. You hitpoints are still wrong.

You didn't buy a cloak of charisma at level 6, you're character does not list anything to said you did, so you didn't. You don't say when you attracted your cohort, so we must assume you did so at your current level with your current gear. At the moment, you're character's leadership score is 12 (12+2-2) so you can't attract a 10th level cohort. Oh, I don't quite follow the gear total for your cohort, but regardless you cohort doesn't get to give you presents.

This discussion is pointless. You're unwilling to even do your own stupid analysis over again. ---> Intellectual Dishonesty.
Heck you're not even willing to pay for your spells or take the leadership hit from having a familiar so cry me a river.

You have yet to point out a single actual error in his character. His cohort and spell purchases are correct, rules for them have been sighted, and have been confirmed by others. If you still claim there is an error, you're welcome to point what the error is. Just claiming there is an error, and claiming others are aware of it and being dishonest is not only pointless, but is a personal attack.

I've already walked through the rules for his cohort, if you don't understand them or disagree with, you're welcome to address them, claiming that Storm Raven or me is being intellectually dishonest does nothing to further your argument and may cause this thread to be locked.

Edit: Ok, still not sure where the numbers for your cohort are from, but he should have 16,000gp worth of gear, he has (ignoring any extra stuff you claim he'd have purchased simply to give to you) 16500 worth of gear.

 

[DungeonMaster]

God you people have too much time on your hands...

Uh huh... You picked a single level, and then are using that single level to prove your points while at many, many other levels, your example doesn't work.

Um, no. If I wanted to be picky I'de take 20th level.
This is like me saying: "you picked a class, a single class! What about the sorceror?! What about the cleric that takes a level of barbarian?! What about the wizard that dies and loses a level? "
I took an appropriately high level and clearly you feel threatened by it so I guess it proves my point well enough. It's got to be balanced at level 12 too incidentally.

The dishonesty you have is that you ignore any level but 12 for the Myth. Or for that matter, I bet you'd ignore any ODD level.

The dishonesty is that you try to ignore level 12 for the Urge. Or for that matter, I bet you'de ignore any EVEN level.

Read my recent posts, you have not disproved any of it.

I actually take the time to read your posts Kem. It's you that don't read mine, remember the spat you had about me saying the hybrids would all cast lower level spells? And you didn't realise I had them listed as lower level?

Thats one of 3 methods. You'll notice its the only method open to a party of pre level 12 Hybrids. You know from level 9 to 11? Where the cleric has been able to raise people already? Or that teleporting to somewhere with someone ABLE to raise the dead is possible?

Listen, I grant you that they get the spell earlier - you have to grant me that the hybrids are "better" at it because they have "more" . It's not even up for debate Kem.

All spellcasters have issues with Golems.
You have the Fighter to stand toe to toe, why try to take that role when you can make him so much better at it. And you'll never be as good at it due to HP/AC/BAB not having weapons.

But the hybrids have 2, or more guys who can do this. Get it?

It is power. But for spellcasters, specialization in spellcasting is power is more power. The Red Wizard isn't thought to be overpowered because they get a variety of spells.

He's clearly hated. By the poll. But guess what? So's the MT. He's in 3rd place.

7th is character level.
4 is spell level.
Wiz +1 means that the wizard has one more spell of this level then the myth.
3 is 3rd level spells.
Wiz +2 means the wizard has 2 more spells here then the myth.

Ah. These are spells per day then I take it. That list is hugely in error. Largely because of the fact that there are bonus spells per level. Even with just 14s in the relevant abilities the numbers change. That's why I made a write-up, to show this sort of thing.

The spells the Wizard has base over the myth form a very predictable pattern.

The "pattern" won't become apparent until much higher level, when ability score increase can no longer keep pace with advancing levels. And the wizard can't specialise as easily as the MT. There are too many variables Kem to base much of anything off of this table you've constructed.

And you get 2 spells per level for free. Thats in a real game. And thats 4 5th level spells known. And I'll take waiting to have 6th level spells while you dilly with 4th level spells. Then YOU get to wait to cast 5th while I am casting 6th.

In a real game things like being able to heal yourself happen a lot. Among other things. Your 6th level spell is likely worthwhile, but never as worthwhile as a complete seperate spell pool and divine granted abilities.

Actually that would be cleric.

The cleric has no skills. The bard has healing. The bard is more versatile and more survivable. Absolutely not a drop of doubt about it.

Versatility is ONLY power, when that versatility doesn't wash out the abilities too much to be useful.

Agreed. The current MT wash enough. Requirements on the order of 4/4 then MT levels would be better balanced.

That's all I have for today, sorry folks.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Looking back, you've apparently fixed the math with his gear. I was off originally, don't know if people had noticed that you'd fixed it. You hitpoints are still wrong.

Which hp?
Every second line I write is read but not integrated so I'm not surprised.

You didn't buy a cloak of charisma at level 6, you're character does not list anything to said you did, so you didn't. You don't say when you attracted your cohort, so we must assume you did so at your current level with your current gear.

I took the feat at the same level he did. We have the same scores, exact same. Are you too going to claim the wizard is adventuring with his robe-of-the-archmagi at lower levels? No, chances are he had another item or suite of items to increase his saves. This isn't a day-to-day tabulation of wealth. It's a total character wealth at a given point in time.

You have yet to point out a single actual error in his character. His cohort and spell purchases are correct, rules for them have been sighted, and have been confirmed by others.

I pointed out an entire list. The "rules sighted by others" are not the rules set down for character creation. It's bogus crap. Just like the leadership crap.

 

[Storm Raven]

Uh-huh. We'll just have to "pretend" the odd levels don't exist. Or the sorceror core class.

It isn't the odd levels. It's that the MT sucks until he reaches at least 11th level.

There's nothing wrong with the build.

Your leadership score is wrong, so we can't figure out if your cohort is built correctly.

Really? I can't afford a cloak of charisma +2 at level 6?

You didn't buy one.

I guess your wizard was naked until level 11ish when he bought his robe?

No, he just used mage armor to provide defense. It isn't that important though, as you will see below.

This discussion is pointless.

Given how clueless you are, I think so.

Heck you're not even willing to pay for your spells or take the leadership hit from having a familiar so cry me a river.

(1) It's not my fault you completely fail to understand the rules concerning cohorts. The fact that you persist in making such a fundamental rules mistake really doesn't help your cause.
(2) I paid for the spells using standard rules from the Core Rules. Cry me a river.

In any event, just to lay this silliness to rest, here is a single classed wizard, 12th level, matched up to your original Urge build (leaving aside the cohorts, since they will essentially offset one another). You should recognize the equipment array:

Wizard 12 (Evoker, Necromancy and Illusion prohibited)
Str 10, Int 22 (15 + 3 level bonus +4 headband), Wis 16 (14 + 2 periapt), Dex 15 (13 + 2 gloves), Con 14 (12 + 2 ioun stone), Cha 8
AC 20 (10 + 4 mage armor + 4 belt + 2 Dex), Touch AC 16, Flat-Footed AC 14, HP 55.5, Init +6 (+2 Dex, +4 feat), Fort +12 (4 + 2 Con +1 luck +3 cloak +2 feat), Reflex +12 (4 +2 Dex +1 luck +3 cloak +2 familiar), Will +15 (8 +3 Wis +3 cloak +1 luck)
Skills: Concentration +18, Decipher Script +22, Knowledge: Arcana +22, Listen +6, Spellcraft +24, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness (familiar), Scribe Scroll (Bonus), Improved Initiative (1st), Great Fortitude (1st), Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), Empower Spell (5th), Spell Penetration (6th), Maximize Spell (9th), Quicken Spell (10th), Craft Rod (12th)

Gear (78,200 spent out of 88,000 total, 9,650 gp left to add spells to spell book)
Metamagic Rod of Lesser Maximize: 8,000 gp (crafted)
Metamagic Rod of Lesser Quicken: 17,500 gp (crafted)
Headband of Intellect: 8,000 gp (crafted)
Periapt of Wisdom +2: 2,000 gp (crafted)
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 2,000 gp (crafted)
Monk’s Belt: 6,500 gp (crafted)
Orange Ioun Stone: 15,000 gp (crafted)
Luckstone: 10,100 gp (crafted)
Pink Ioun Stone: 4,000 gp (crafted)
Cloak of Resistance +3: 4,500 gp (crafted)
Weasel Familiar (100)

A couple days ago he cast Contingency, and linked it to a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, with the trigger "if I am targeted or affected by hostile magic.

Spell Slots (caster level 13)
0th: 4+1, 1st: 6+1, 2nd: 6+1, 3rd: 5+1, 4th: 5+1, 5th: 4+1, 6th: 3+1, 7th:1+1

Sample Spell Book:
1st level: Burning Hands, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, True-Strike
2nd Level: Scorching Ray, Fox’s Cunning, Glitterdust (350 gp), Gust of Wind, Cat’s Grace, Owl’s Wisdom (350 gp)
3rd Level: Dispel Magic, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud
4th Level: Black Tentacles, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Wall of Ice, Wall of Fire
5th Level: Cone of Cold, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Teleport
6th Level: Chain Lightning, Contingency, Flesh to Stone, Greater Dispel Magic
7th Level: Limited Wish, Prismatic Spray

Spell Selection (DC 16 + spell level, caster level 15 to overcome SR)
1st Level: Magic Missile x4, Mage Armor, True Strike, Shield
2nd Level: Scorching Ray x3, Glitterdust x2, Gust of Wind, Owl’s Wisdom
3rd Level: Fireball x2, Lightning Bolt, Empowered Magic Missile, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
4th Level: Black Tentacles x2, Empowered Scorching Ray, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Wall of Ice, Wall of Fire
5th Level: Cone of Cold, Feeblemind, Empowered Fireball x2, Teleport
6th Level: Chain Lightning, Flesh to Stone x2, Greater Dispel Magic
7th Level: Prismatic Spray, Empowered Cone of Cold

So, let's compare, head to head.

AC: Urge wins. By two. Exciting!
HP: Urge wins. By 8. Exciting!
Initiative: Urge loses. By 4.
Fort Saves: Tie. Aren't his cleric levels supposed to help him here?
Reflex saves: Tie.
Will saves: Urge wins. By 5. Not too shabby.
Feats: Urge loses. Wizard has everything Urge has, plus Improved Initiative and Great Fortitude.
Gear: Virtually identical. The only change was to drop the ring of counterspells, and lower the periapt of wisdom to +2 in order to leave cash for his spell book.
Save DCs: Urge loses. By 1.
Spell Slots: Urge loses. By a lot. Even combining his cleric and wizard spell slots, he's behind in usefulness. Compare spells by spells level -

Urge
1st: 10, 2nd: 10, 3rd: 8, 4th: 6, 5th: 4

Wizard
1st: 7, 2nd: 7, 3rd: 6, 4th: 6, 5th: 5, 6th: 4, 7th: 2

So, Urge has three more 1st and 2nd level spells, and two more 3rd level spells. However, Wizard has 1 more 5th level slot, 4 more 6th level slots, and 2 more 7th level slots. Urge has one more net spell slot than Wizard, and the "difference" is that Wizard has spells two levels higher than Urge can cast.

Special abilities: Urge wins by a little. He can turn undead, very badly. He can reroll one roll per day, which is nifty. He can use freedom of movement for three rounds per day, which is also kinda nifty. His familiar is comparatively worthless, and quite vulnerable (as he is lacking in the high level familiar abilities).

Wizard could add several spells to his spell book, but I don't need to for this comparison, since, as a spell caster, Wizard just totally outclasses Urge every way that counts. Of course, there is also the fact that Wizard didn't go through the "dead" period between 4th and 11th level, where he was a huge burden to his party due to his lousy capabilities.

 

[Storm Raven]

I took the feat at the same level he did. We have the same scores, exact same.

No, you don't. Because you didn't get your charisma boost until 12th level, so if you recruited your cohort at 6th level your leadership score was lower and you had to recruit a lesser cohort, and thus your cohort won't be 10th level when you reach 12th.

I pointed out an entire list. The "rules sighted by others" are not the rules set down for character creation. It's bogus crap. Just like the leadership crap.

I'm glad to see you persist in not knowing what the rules of the game are. It makes your arguments concerning the rules so much more convincing.