Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[dnabre]

Which hp?

The Urge's hp, post #280 28.5 + 2x12 != 63.5.

Every second line I write is read but not integrated so I'm not surprised.

I only quote those parts I'm directly responding to.

I took the feat at the same level he did. We have the same scores, exact same. Are you too going to claim the wizard is adventuring with his robe-of-the-archmagi at lower levels? No, chances are he had another item or suite of items to increase his saves. This isn't a day-to-day tabulation of wealth. It's a total character wealth at a given point in time.

Would he have had other gear, yes, but we cannot consider what gear an individual might have had at the time into their current character. Especially with people crafting stuff, them using items they don't currently have at some point in the past leave too much open to guess work.

At level 6, your leadership score (I'm assuming you summoned the familiar before then, as I assumed for Storm Raven's character), would be 6 - 2 = 4, meaning you could have attracted a 3rd level druid. From level 6 to your current level 12, assuming he levels everytime you do (a conservative assumption), he'd be 8th level at this point. And he'd have 9,400 gp worth of gear. Considering how long he's been with you, it would be reasonable for it all to be crafted by you.

I pointed out an entire list. The "rules sighted by others" are not the rules set down for character creation. It's bogus crap. Just like the leadership crap.

Which post would the list be in (post # please), I must have missed it. I'll be happy to address the concerns in the list. Which post did you point out the flaws in my check of his cohort?

 

[Storm Raven]

This isn't a day-to-day tabulation of wealth. It's a total character wealth at a given point in time.

If that's how you want to do things, it clants even more heavily in the wizard's favor, since the value of his spell book is 100 gp per page, not "value of scroll + 100 gp per page".

 

[ThirdWizard]

Listen, I grant you that they get the spell earlier - you have to grant me that the hybrids are "better" at it because they have "more" . It's not even up for debate Kem.

You're right that it isn't open for debate. But, you're wrong in your assumption that hybrids are better at anything. More does not mean better. In this case, more means lesser abilities but a greater amount of them per day. I don't think you see the balancing factor that they are lesser abilities.

As for spells, a 6th level spell will cost you

Some quotes of note in the SRD:

Spellbooks: A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x50 gp.

Selling a Spellbook
Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
...
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

Now, lets do the math. First, how many spells does he have? We have to remember to subtract the spells he gets for free every level.

1st - 6 - 6 (actually should have more 1st level spells) = 0
2nd - 6 - 4 (3rd and 4th levle bonus) = 2
3rd - 5 - 4 (5th and 6th level bonus) = 1
4th - 4 - 4 (7th and 8th level bonus) = 0
5th - 5 - 4 (9th and 10th level bonus) = 1
6th - 7 - 4 (11th and 12th level bonus) = 3

Okay, so now we have to determine what it would cost to get a spellbook with this many spells in it. I'm going to take the worst case scenario and assume that in 12 levels the wizard never looted a spellbook from a fallen enemy nor did he make friends with another wizard and swapped spells with said wizard. Both very unlikely circumstances, but it could happen... um... yeah...

So, we've got 100 gp x spell level to buy a book containing a spell, since selling is half price and you can sell spellbooks for 50gp x spell level. So, the prices are going to be 200 gp for a 2nd level spell, 300 for a 3rd, etc. And scribing costs will also be 100 gp x spell level.

2nd - (200 gp x 2)2 = 800 gp
3rd - (300 gp x 1)1 = 300 gp
5th - (500 gp x 1)1 = 500 gp
6th - (600 gp x 3)3 = 5,400 gp

For a grand total of 7,000 gp in a worst case scenario where the wizard has been repeatedly screwed over in terms of spell aquisition. Half that is he gets his spells from a wizard who is willing to charge to let him copy them out. Less than that if there have been even a few enemy wizards in the campaign he has fought against and looted a spellbook from. So, really, in realistic terms we're looking at around a 3000 gp investment for the spells he picked out, but a worst case scenario of 7000 gp spent.

 

[ThirdWizard]

By the way, I find it important to note that the MT does NOT get 2 bonus spells per level like the wizard does.

 

[Storm Raven]

You're right that it isn't open for debate. But, you're wrong in your assumption that hybrids are better at anything. More does not mean better. In this case, more means lesser abilities but a greater amount of them per day. I don't think you see the balancing factor that they are lesser abilities.

The funny thing is it's not really "more". It's "about as many, but far less powerful".

The straight wizard has 2 7th, 4 6th, and 1 5th level spell slot than Urge does not have. His save DCs are higher. His initiative rolls are better.

Urge has 3 1st, 3 3rd, and 1 3rd evel spell slot that the Wizard does not have. Urge can use freedom of movement for three rounds per day, and reroll one roll per day. Urge can (sort of) turn undead. Urge has better Will saves, and a few more hit points. Urge has an AC advantage that is completely negated if Wizard casts shield (and quibbling over a 22 AC vs. a 20 AC at 12th level is silly).

So, offset

(1) the freedom of movement ability (its not even as powerful as a 4th level spell) and higher Will save bonus against the 5th level spell slot the wizard gets.
(2) the reroll ability against a 6th level spell slot.
(3) the turn undead ability, AC and extra hit points against the better intiative, better skills, and higher save DCs (being able to turn undead as a 3rd level cleric at 12th level is not even that useful).

And you still have to stack up 2 7th level spell slots and a 6th level spell slot, against Urge's 3 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots, and 1 3rd level slot. One fairly common method of comparing spell slots to one another is to square the level of the spell = 1st level spells = 1, 2nd level spells = 4, and so on (since spell slots do not scale up in a linear fashion).

So, the Wizard, using this method, would have a power score for the Wizard of 134, while Urge has a 24 for this set of spells. Just counting spell levels, Wizard is ahead 20 to 12.

 

[DungeonMaster]

In any event, just to lay this silliness to rest, here is a single classed wizard, 12th level, matched up to your original Urge build.

Spell Slots
0th: 4+1, 1st: 6+1, 2nd: 6+1, 3rd: 5+1, 4th: 5+1, 5th: 4+1, 6th: 3+1, 7th:1+1

Sample Spell Book:
7th Level: Limited Wish, Prismatic Spray

Given how clueless you are, I think so.

I see this has degenerated into direct insults.
Direct insults - calling me clueless and my builds "in error" - but 12th level wizard, and 7th level spell slots and 7th level prepared spells. And then go on to describe the 7th level spells. After discussing for pages and pages about 12th level wizards and 6th level spells. After writting up 2 wizard builds at the same level.
The irony is biting. And not one of the other people point this out.

There's nothing more for me to do here.
Everything has been said, the statistics tell the truth. The vocal minority of MT and 2nd edition multiclass spellcaster lovers: I salute you. Enjoy your broken toy. Let's hope it dies once and for all in the next edition.

 

[ThirdWizard]

There's nothing more for me to do here.
Everything has been said, the statistics tell the truth. The vocal minority of MT and 2nd edition multiclass monsters: I salute you.

You know, you completely ignored my entire post where I told you exaclty why this is completely different than 2nd Edition multiclassing. As far as I'm concerned you ceded the point when you decided not to debate it.

And, you are the vocal minority... if you'll notice you're the only one saying they're overpowered.

 

[DungeonMaster]

The Urge's hp, post #280 28.5 + 2x12 != 63.5.

As a final note, and this time I do mean final, the number is correct, the little equation got chopped.
8+2d8+9d4+2x12= 63.5 average. Thanks though.
It won't help me much against Storm Raven's 7th level spell casting 12th level wizard though. It would have been nice if someone, anyone noted this. Anyhow.
This is a charade now and has been for quite some time.
I'm sorry 3rd wizard, I haven't had time. I've got to much fanaticsism to smash that the odd intelligent argument that crops up is likely to get blown away by the latest gust of nonsense. If you really want a reply send me a private message.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Like how he called out the 7th level error without actually addressing any of the valid points that SR brings up?

Yeah. More is not better.

 

[Storm Raven]

I see this has degenerated into direct insults.
Direct insults - calling me clueless and my builds "in error" - but 12th level wizard, and 7th level spell slots and 7th level prepared spells. And then go on to describe the 7th level spells. After discussing for pages and pages about 12th level wizards and 6th level spells.

Perhaps you didn't notice the orange ioun stone. You know, the one that says "+1 caster level". That makes him a 13th level caster. Hence, 7th level spell slots. Catch up here.

Even leaving the 7th level slots aside, you basically have to compare 3 1st, 3 2rd, and 1 3rd level spell slot to a 6th level spell slot. You still don't come out ahead (36 on the power scale to your 24).