Whiney players....

[Slaygrim]

(edit: For more information, read post #76 by me)

I've got a player in my group who is the BIGGEST whiner, and I can't stand it. The biggest problem is that he is the only other person who will DM with me, so having him around is the only way I actually get to play a character.

This guy whines CONSTANTLY.

If faced with an opponant or battle that appears too tough for him, he will whine saying it's too strong of a battle and that there is no way his character would fight this battle. Such as recently, the party is 4 10th level characters and they had to battle a 19th level wizard, a 16th level sorcerer, a 15th level wizard, a beholder, and a runic guardian. Of course this battle does appear to be too powerful, the gaming group completely forgot (I have no idea how) that the previous adventure the PC's learned that the 15th level wizard was actually a spy out to stop this 19th level wizards plot. So the entire time before the battle, all I hear is whining. "Oh this is too powerful, we are out of our leagues. My character wouldn't fight this, he'd just walk away." and all of this junk. But of course the other PC's are going forward and fighting the battle so he reluctantly goes along.

When the battle begins the 15th level wizard "enemy" immediately turns on his allies and aids the PC's in the battle. The battle actually secludes the main enemy from the battle (as was planned by me from the start) as he had to work on a ritual. Thus it ended up being the 4 PC's and this 15th level wizard traitor against a 16th level sorcerer, a beholder, and a runic guardian. In the end the battle went quick. The sorcerer failed his save against prismatic spray and turned to stone on the first exchange, and the PC's destroyed the beholder and the runic guardian within two rounds. This lead to the final battle which included all PC's + the 15th level wizard against the 19th level wizard. Again, that player starts whining saying that once this wizard casts time stop they are all done for. I wanted to rip my hair out.

And it's not just this. It gets worse. If a battle happens, such as when the characters were 9th level, they were ambushed by a gang of bandit rogues, about 20 of them. These rogues were all 3rd level. The real plot behind this battle was that it was arranged by a powerful assassin to study how the PC's respond to stealthy assailants. Well this problem player walked through the battle with ease, and then was complaining that it was too easy and that I shouldn't have thrown this battle into the game. *grrrrr*

It get's worse. While exploring an ancient Netherese Ruins the place was guarded by multiple Iron Golems. His character, a spellcaster, clearly was useless offensively as the Iron Golems are immune to most forms of magic. Thus, he was delegated to the role of the "buffer", having to cast spells that suped up the fighters. Throughout the entire dungeon there were spots still guarded by Iron Golems. This player once again began complaining about how he can't "ever" do anything in battle, that I keep arranging battles where he is useless and how it's not fun for him. Forget that this was a sealed dungeon that no one had entered in over 2000 years and that nothing outside of undead or constructs would exist in there, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I didn't arrange for the place to be filled with more than constructs... at least until the end of the dungeon where they did end up fighting undead... only then the undead had spell resistance that was hard to overcome, so he complained about that too. "There's NOTHING I can do. I need to roll of 16+ to beat his spell resistance. That's stupid. I guess I'll just back up and stand there."

You think that's bad? Heaven forbid the guy gets hit by a Mordenkainens Disjunction and loses magical items. It's time to turn his character around and head back to town, forsaking his quest because he doesn't have his items.

This was mostly just a rant. He's taking over DMing now, so I won't have to put up with it for awhile. I get to play and I am really resisting the urge to give him loads of trouble and a taste of his own medicine.

 

[Blackmage]

Why is this in the house rules section?

 

[Slaygrim]

Not sure where else to put it.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I agree with the whiner.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

These types of rants (and most of us have had players like this) goes into the General forum. You'll find a lot of rants there and a lot of good advice which usually boils down to "talk to the player outside of the game."

 

[roguerouge]

There are several solutions:

0. Talk to the other players privately. How do they like the game? What, honestly, would they want for their next adventure? What, in their opinion and not yours, is working and what could be improved?

1. Talk to him about undermining you as a DM in front of the players. He's essentially saying that you don't know what you're doing. It's not polite, nor is it conducive to fun. The proper time to bring this stuff up is after the game. Your response should be, "We'll talk about it after the game." Do not engage on his terms.

2. Some players are pessimists. I have one or two in one of the games I play in. I just started saying, "We can take 'em!" for every combat, no matter what I thought. Perhaps one of your players can be recruited to fill that role.

3. Arrange for one or two monsters per session to be this player's fodder. Oozes and outsiders could have been added to your sealed dungeon for this purpose.

4. Clearly, he's jonesing to DM. Let him. Lead by example and don't retaliate with low-trust game playing.

 

[Slaygrim]

There are several solutions:

0. Talk to the other players privately. How do they like the game? What, honestly, would they want for their next adventure? What, in their opinion and not yours, is working and what could be improved?

1. Talk to him about undermining you as a DM in front of the players. He's essentially saying that you don't know what you're doing. It's not polite, nor is it conducive to fun. The proper time to bring this stuff up is after the game. Your response should be, "We'll talk about it after the game." Do not engage on his terms.

2. Some players are pessimists. I have one or two in one of the games I play in. I just started saying, "We can take 'em!" for every combat, no matter what I thought. Perhaps one of your players can be recruited to fill that role.

3. Arrange for one or two monsters per session to be this player's fodder. Oozes and outsiders could have been added to your sealed dungeon for this purpose.

4. Clearly, he's jonesing to DM. Let him. Lead by example and don't retaliate with low-trust game playing.

Very constructive advice. Thank you.

 

[Rackhir]

Such as recently, the party is 4 10th level characters and they had to battle a 19th level wizard, a 16th level sorcerer, a 15th level wizard, a beholder, and a runic guardian.

Actually the guy does have a point. He might be doing it in a whinny and irritating fashion, but he's got a basis for complaint.

A lv19 wizard is nominally on his own a CR 19 encounter, which means he's a +4 CR challenge for a lv 15 party, never mind a lv 10 party. +4 CR encounters have a decent chance of being a TPK. Stack in even just the 16th lv sorc, beholder and a runic guardian and you have a near certain tpk even with the assistance of the lv 15 wiz.

I'd be going "This is nuts!", IF I didn't have some reason to believe otherwise. Part of the problem here is that there's obviously a lack of trust between the players and you. Remember that just because you have the battle all plotted out so as to reduce the dangerousness of it, this isn't necessarily going to be obvious to the players. Especially if you haven't given them good reason to "trust" you aren't going to toss them into a meat grinder or go "Well that was OBVIOUSLY way too dangerous, you should have run away." Which I have seen more than one DM post about situations that sound a whole lot like this.

When the battle begins the 15th level wizard "enemy" immediately turns on his allies and aids the PC's in the battle. The battle actually secludes the main enemy from the battle (as was planned by me from the start) as he had to work on a ritual. Thus it ended up being the 4 PC's and this 15th level wizard traitor against a 16th level sorcerer, a beholder, and a runic guardian. In the end the battle went quick. The sorcerer failed his save against prismatic spray and turned to stone on the first exchange, and the PC's destroyed the beholder and the runic guardian within two rounds.

Again, this battle could very easily have killed all or nearly all of the party. A 16th lv sorc can hit them with with a maximized cone of cold (90 pts damage) with a DC of easily 22. Given a reflex save of probably about 10-11 for most non-dex char that's probably no more than a 50% chance of making the save. If they don't, lots 10th lv characters have a good chance of dying from it and that much damage could kill a mage even IF they make the save. Just the sorcerer on his OWN is an extremely dangerous opponent, with support it can very quickly turn lethal.

What if the Wiz had failed a save and gone down instead of the Sorc. How long would the party have lasted at that point?

This lead to the final battle which included all PC's + the 15th level wizard against the 19th level wizard. Again, that player starts whining saying that once this wizard casts time stop they are all done for. I wanted to rip my hair out.

Especially if this is coming immediately after the battle with the Sorc and the rest of them, yes it does stand a substantial chance of a TPK. Since the chances of a TPK go up considerably, when you have to fight multiple high CR encounters without a chance to rest and regain resources (Spells, potions, etc). Also the Save DCs for a 19th lv wizard are on a different planet than the save bonuses for 10th level characters. For a 9th level spell with Spell Focus and an Int likely in the high 20s, you could hit a DC 30. Which means most 10th level char could need something close to a 20 to save.

Now it sounds like you probably gimped the Wiz in some fashion, but even if you did. You have characters who are way out of their depth who are being assisted by what sounds like that most loathed of creations the DMPC. Who's way more powerful than they are and sounds like he's probably pulling most of the weight in the fights, reducing the PCs to essentially bystanders in a story that's supposed to be about them.

It sounds like this wasn't your intention and it sounds like you had an idea for what struck you as a really cool encounter and sequence of battles, but it also sounds like you are probably guilty of wanting to tell a story you wanted to tell regardless of what the players might want to do. Players like at least the illusion of control. Nobody likes sitting back and playing second fiddle to an NPC who's way more powerful than they are.

And it's not just this. It gets worse. If a battle happens, such as when the characters were 9th level, they were ambushed by a gang of bandit rogues, about 20 of them. These rogues were all 3rd level. The real plot behind this battle was that it was arranged by a powerful assassin to study how the PC's respond to stealthy assailants. Well this problem player walked through the battle with ease, and then was complaining that it was too easy and that I shouldn't have thrown this battle into the game. *grrrrr*

You've got more of a case here, but remember even if the player is a whiny irritating crybaby, he might have a point.

It get's worse. While exploring an ancient Netherese Ruins the place was guarded by multiple Iron Golems. His character, a spellcaster, clearly was useless offensively as the Iron Golems are immune to most forms of magic. Thus, he was delegated to the role of the "buffer", having to cast spells that suped up the fighters. Throughout the entire dungeon there were spots still guarded by Iron Golems. This player once again began complaining about how he can't "ever" do anything in battle, that I keep arranging battles where he is useless and how it's not fun for him. Forget that this was a sealed dungeon that no one had entered in over 2000 years and that nothing outside of undead or constructs would exist in there, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I didn't arrange for the place to be filled with more than constructs... at least until the end of the dungeon where they did end up fighting undead... only then the undead had spell resistance that was hard to overcome, so he complained about that too. "There's NOTHING I can do. I need to roll of 16+ to beat his spell resistance. That's stupid. I guess I'll just back up and stand there."

So what you're saying is you filled a dungeon with creatures that are essentially immune to anything he could do and then hit him with creatures he has very little chance of affecting and you are wondering why he was upset and bored?

Look it might have been logical that it was mostly Iron Golems in there, but it's obviously not going to be much fun for someone who's sole role is to cast Bull's Strength on the fighter. There are constructs that aren't immune to magic, you could have put some of them in there. There are plenty of Undead who don't have high SR, why didn't you put some of them in there?

Were you trying to punish him for being whiny?

I mean seriously if the tables were turned and you were faced with an adventure that was seemingly specifically designed to render you useless, wouldn't you be bored and irritated?

Would the fighter be any happier if a dungeon consisted solely of creatures with DR he couldn't get through followed by creatures with a 80% miss chance on any physical attacks?

Look try talking to your players, specifically the whining one. Maybe it's just a mismatch of playing styles. It certainly sounds like the two of you are operating with a different set of assumptions. If you both clarified what you were looking for and what you disliked in an adventure it might go a long way to ease the friction.

Remember just because something is obvious or clear to you, it is not necessarily obvious or clear to the players. You need to be on the same page before you can make those kinds of assumptions.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I agree with Rackhir.

I don't know how you DM, but it seems like you don't powergame at all. What I mean by this is that that fight with the level 19 wizard should have been a TPK. The only reason for it not being a TPK would be if the wizard were caught naked while sittin' on the john. Even then, unless he were killed in the surprise round or lost initiative and then died, he should just plain flee and then plan some revenge, guaranteeing a TPK.

The player obviously should react with a lot of whining, but you also could try to look past that miserable whining at his valid points. I highly recommend that you point this thread to the player as well and you both take this opportunity as a learning experience. Yeah, if the other guy is completely immature, it may cost you a gaming buddy, but if it doesn't it will be very much worth it in the long run.

 

[evilbob]

yeah, probably should be moved to general

Actually the guy does have a point...

No. He doesn't.

I guess I'm a bit surprised by posts like, "I agree with the whiner," but I am sorry: that is wrong. I know because I have had to deal with THIS EXACT SAME SITUATION. It is downright eerie how close the OP's rant is to a description of one of my long-time gaming friends. I COMPLETELY sympathize with the OP. To anyone who has not experienced this: I'm sorry, but you cannot justify the whiner's behavior. He is wrong. What he is doing is not constructive and in fact poisonous to entire gaming experience - and it ruins the fun for everyone.


To the OP: you have gotten one response with some good advice, but honestly, my advice will be different: stop gaming with this person. Once again, because it bares repeating: do not game with him any more. This seems harsh, and you probably don't want to hear it, but trust me: this is the best way in the end. You can find other friends; you can find other people. Life is too short and there are too many people willing to play the game you love to WASTE your time dealing with this guy, because guess what: he is not going to change. I appreciate the advice given above and I think it is good advice, but unless this guy is generally a very nice person and welcomes constructive criticism, he will not change. All you will end up doing is getting the occasional apology and maybe some promises, but he will not change. And it is not your place to change this person. You need to realize that this person is an ass, and it is not worth your time on this earth to get a mountain to move itself.

Find other people to game with. You will be happier in the end with this solution. I know I am.