Whiney players....

[Mr. Beef]

As someone who has only been on the Players side of the DM screen, and want's to try out his DMing prowress in the future, I'm going to try to stay balanced on my comment's without leaning to one side or the other.

This guy whines CONSTANTLY.

I understand that a whining player is bad for everyone involved and sometimes makes you reconsider being the DM, but I think that you two are over the ages of angst (ages 13-18) and you want to make everything good for all the parties involved.

If faced with an opponant or battle that appears too tough for him, he will whine saying it's too strong of a battle and that there is no way his character would fight this battle.

Does he think that they are a bit too powerful for just him to take on by himself or for the entire party? If it's just him then I think he may be justified in whining, but he could probably bring it up in another fasion after the session is over and you can talk it out like adults.

Such as recently, the party is 4 10th level characters and they had to battle a 19th level wizard, a 16th level sorcerer, a 15th level wizard, a beholder, and a runic guardian.

Do the characters know the levels of their opponents or are they just guessing? Anyone with access to a MM will know the challenge level of a Beholder (13 if they have not changed anything). This makes me think that maybe you might have thrown a bit too much their way.

Of course this battle does appear to be too powerful, the gaming group completely forgot (I have no idea how) that the previous adventure the PC's learned that the 15th level wizard was actually a spy out to stop this 19th level wizards plot.

They may have forgotten because you threw a lot of stuff their way between their last encounter with the Wizard and this encounter. I know that in one of the games I used to play we all tried to remember bits and pieces of things, but sometimes people forget things and we got to a point where someone always kept notes.

So the entire time before the battle, all I hear is whining. "Oh this is too powerful, we are out of our leagues. My character wouldn't fight this, he'd just walk away." and all of this junk. But of course the other PC's are going forward and fighting the battle so he reluctantly goes along. When the battle begins the 15th level wizard "enemy" immediately turns on his allies and aids the PC's in the battle.

This sounds like he has less to gripe about, but again how did they know this Wizard was level 15? I understand that things sometimes slip out or players sometimes see things that they should not see when they get up for a break, but how do they know this?

The battle actually secludes the main enemy from the battle (as was planned by me from the start) as he had to work on a ritual. Thus it ended up being the 4 PC's and this 15th level wizard traitor against a 16th level sorcerer, a beholder, and a runic guardian. In the end the battle went quick. The sorcerer failed his save against prismatic spray and turned to stone on the first exchange, and the PC's destroyed the beholder and the runic guardian within two rounds. This lead to the final battle which included all PC's + the 15th level wizard against the 19th level wizard.

I think 4 level 10 characters and a level 15 NPC might have a shot, but then again I have never faced these kinds of odds before.

Again, that player starts whining saying that once this wizard casts time stop they are all done for. I wanted to rip my hair out.

This sounds like Metagaming to me and that is something that needs to be avoided. I think if this Wizard knew he was going to be facing 5 characters that have just buzzsawed through characters that are between 3 and 6 levels above them then the Wizard would have cast Time Stop a long time ago and did his ritual and been done with them afterwards.

I get to play and I am really resisting the urge to give him loads of trouble and a taste of his own medicine.

DON'T stoop to his level. Set an example of how a player should play by just playing your character to the back story you have written and don't gripe about a thing. If you feel you need to gripe about how something is being done, do it after the game. I'll state this again for the record: DON'T STOOP TO HIS LEVEL.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

The point I and others are making here is that the player in question has reasonable objections that should be addressed. In the first situation, you presented a combat scenario that was heavily slated against the players, with victory only possible through DM fiat, and retreat or escape barred by the same.

In the second scenario, he was faced with the prospect of having his character do practically nothing throughout an entire dungeon. All complaints of "metagaming" aside, D&D is still a game, and it's not fun to have nothing substantial to do with your character for 4-6 hours straight. By the way, the question was not answered, as to whether or not the character had foreknowledge of this dungeons inhabitants, or time/the option to retreat and scribe spells for the encounters.

I don't see why you are placing all the blame for the issues you are having with the player in question solely at his feet. There is nothing wrong with considering his point of view and why he made the objections, despite the fact he may not have done so with the greatest of grace and diplomacy.

 

[Slaygrim]

The point I and others are making here is that the player in question has reasonable objections that should be addressed. In the first situation, you presented a combat scenario that was heavily slated against the players, with victory only possible through DM fiat, and retreat or escape barred by the same.

I see the problem with this if it were a regular occurrence, but it is not. It was ONE battle in an ENTIRE campaign, and this final battle is setting up the next big campaign, so certain things had to happen in a certain order this one time. I do not see the problem with that.

If you think there is never a time and place for a battle to happen that would under normal circumstances be too tough, but under the right conditions the PC's found themselves game to the challenge, then we'll just disagree and that's that.

A lot of epic stories have situations like this.

In the second scenario, he was faced with the prospect of having his character do practically nothing throughout an entire dungeon.

For the eighteenth time, this is NOT TRUE. I have said this time after time after time. In the first dungeon many adventures back, there was an entire dungeon full of enemies and battles. In this dungeon there were TWO Iron Golems, and ONE Death Knight. There were still a ton of other battles where that player did plenty. There was another wizard in the party, HE had no complaints. JUST the whiner.

As for the Netherese Dungeon, the final dungeon, I already said that I went ahead and changed the vast majority of constructs over from Iron Golems to Helmed Horrors after the first dungeon BECAUSE the player didn't like facing a single battle where he couldn't use Evocation like it was going out of style the next day.

So AGAIN, your assessment is off. Imagine my frustration when you guys keep saying the same thing over and over about this and I keep on trying to set it straight but then the next post is saying the same thing, as if I never set the record straight. I imagine your patience would wear thin.

All complaints of "metagaming" aside, D&D is still a game, and it's not fun to have nothing substantial to do with your character for 4-6 hours straight.

SIGH.

By the way, the question was not answered, as to whether or not the character had foreknowledge of this dungeons inhabitants, or time/the option to retreat and scribe spells for the encounters.

The PC's were aware that:

A) The dungeon was an ancient stasis tomb imprisoning an Arcanist and that it had been sealed for 2000 years.

I don't know about you, but to me, I think I'd have a fairly good idea what I would be facing; Undead, or Constructs.

B) Yes, they knew that the entrance they were taking to get into the dungeon was going to reseal itself after they entered well before going in.

I don't see why you are placing all the blame for the issues you are having with the player in question solely at his feet. There is nothing wrong with considering his point of view and why he made the objections, despite the fact he may not have done so with the greatest of grace and diplomacy.

Once AGAIN I do not blame every issue on this player. I have said this MULTIPLE times too. I'll not repeat it again. You're wrong here. Go back and read the last few posts to see numerous occasions where I firmly states I could have done things better.

I'm sure within the next few posts I'll end up repeating all of this again.

 

[Felix]

I'm sure within the next few posts I'll end up repeating all of this again.

Few folks who come into a 5-page thread read the whole thing before they post. *shrug* That's what you get with teh intarnet.

Anywho, have you talked to the guy yet by any chance?

 

[White Whale]

Slaygrim, it seems as though you chose really bad examples to describe the Whiner. As has been pointed out by several people, the Whiner is actually justified in expressing concerns in those specific cases (overchallenging encounter and encounters where the player is 'useless').

If you really want sympathy you should provide examples where the Whiner has no reason to whine.

 

[Arnwyn]

Wow, Slaygrim, I feel for you.

This is indeed one of the worst examples of people not adequately reading the thread (and the posts within the thread) I've ever seen at ENWorld.

Ow.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Wow, Slaygrim, I feel for you.

This is indeed one of the worst examples of people not adequately reading the thread (and the posts within the thread) I've ever seen at ENWorld.

Ow.

Does this mean that there'll be a "whiney posters" thread soon?

 

[Arnwyn]

Does this mean that there'll be a "whiney posters" thread soon?

It's like the answer to the question: "why, if there is a Mother's Day and a Father's Day, is there no "Children's Day"?"

Every thread is a "whiney posters" thread!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Wow, Slaygrim, I feel for you.

This is indeed one of the worst examples of people not adequately reading the thread (and the posts within the thread) I've ever seen at ENWorld.

Ow.

Or one of the best examples of most posters disagreeing with the OP.

I did indeed read his post, and I did indeed feel that the whining in the example cited was warranted.

It is also possible that the OP is 'punishing' the player, which, if true, only reinforces my opinion.

The Auld Grump

 

[cougent]

And we come full circle, whining, being childish, being rude are NEVER justified... well maybe if he is 12, but no not even then really.

Having an issue / problem / disagreement with the scenario and trying to resolve it to ones own satisfaction is acceptable, being a whiney brat is not... especially if he is not 12.