Whip AoO

[magic_gathering2001]

what would prerequisites for a feat that lets you make attacks of opportunity with a whip?

 

[genshou]

The first and most obvious prerequisite would be Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip). Aside from that, we'll take a look in the D&D accessory Sword and Fist:

The Lasher PrC grants the ability to threaten adjacent spaces (ie, only at 5 feet) as if a whip were a melee weapon. Since a character can't be a 1st-level Lasher until their 6th character level at the earliest, anyone else who wants this ability should have to wait at least two character levels, to be fair. On that note, you would give the feat a prerequisite of Base Attack Bonus +8. However...

When comparing this with other feats which require this high of a BaB, we see that the ability to threaten with a whip may be somewhat underpowered compared to some others (Imp Crit, Stunning Fist). I'd say drop the BaB prerequisite to +6. It is a class ability for a PrC, but someone willing to acquire it at the cost of a feat should be able to get it at the same level, since a whip isn't a munchinistic item anyway (though it is a very useful one for those who have the Improved Disarm or Improved Trip feats). You might consider having another feat prerequisite, such as Combat Reflexes, but that's up to you. I'd use Combat Reflexes, but that's only because my players would be willing to take that feat first for its usefulness on its own.

Can anyone else contribute their wisdom?

 

[HellHound]

I would call for Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus most likely... Combat Expertise because it's a dump feat for many characters and makes it so you (a) need to be Intelligent about whip handling and (b) have to focus on gaining this feat, and not just be able to pick it up along the way.

I would also stick to only threatening 5 feet with it. Maybe with another feat with a higher BAB requirement to threaten further.

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OR - I would pick up E.N. Arsenal - Whips, written by Ryan Nock - a PDF which focuses entirely on whips and the whip-wielder, and which includes a set of three feats for wielding whips in melee including threatening and increasing the reach at which you can threaten.

 

[genshou]

I would call for Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus most likely... Combat Expertise because it's a dump feat for many characters and makes it so you (a) need to be Intelligent about whip handling and (b) have to focus on gaining this feat, and not just be able to pick it up along the way.

I would also stick to only threatening 5 feet with it. Maybe with another feat with a higher BAB requirement to threaten further.

I thought about Weapon Focus, but it didn't make it into my post. I can't remember why.

Combat Expertise in and of itself relates to the whip in many ways, and the ability to threaten with a whip could certainly join the ranks of sub-feats that rely on it. I just didn't think it made a worthy prerequisite for an ability involving attacks of opportunity. But, I suppose it does make a great deal of sense, thematically...

Hmm, think I'll be picking up that PDF for Shirl...

 

[genshou]

After downloading and reading the PDF mentioned, I find the prerequisites for many of the feats to be too low. It hamstrings the Lasher PrC significantly. In fact, I'll have to run the numbers together, but one might just get about the same benefit from taking Fighter levels and choosing bonus feats that grant the same abilities as Lasher.

Still, if you use whips extensively in your games, or just want to really get the maximum performance out of that whip-wielding character, this PDF is great!

 

[RangerWickett]

As author of the book, I'll chime in just a bit. My intention was to make whips at least a bit more viable of a back-up weapon or tool at low-level, and let them actually be an interesting weapon at high level. Basically, as long as I didn't make the whip stronger than a spiked chain, I was fairly confident I hadn't broken anything.

I don't think a prestige class like the Lasher is necessary. At best, it basically just gives a bunch of effects that are like bonus feats. At worst, it shoehorns all whip wielders into the same style. Some people don't want a whip sneak attack and don't want to do trick shots -- they just want to be able to disarm really well, or even use the whip as an actual weapon. A lot of people don't realize that in 3.5, a whip is a one-handed melee weapon, so you can power attack with it.

Melee Lash [Fighter]
You threaten the area around you with a whip.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip), base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When armed with a whip or other whip-like weapon, you threaten an area around you equal to your normal unarmed reach. You can make attacks of opportunity with the whip within that area. Additionally, you don’t incur attacks of opportunity by using a whip in combat, or by any other use of a whip, such as with the Third Hand feat.
Normal: A whip has 15-ft. reach, but does not threaten that area. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

 

[genshou]

As author of the book, I'll chime in just a bit. My intention was to make whips at least a bit more viable of a back-up weapon or tool at low-level, and let them actually be an interesting weapon at high level. Basically, as long as I didn't make the whip stronger than a spiked chain, I was fairly confident I hadn't broken anything.

I don't think a prestige class like the Lasher is necessary. At best, it basically just gives a bunch of effects that are like bonus feats. At worst, it shoehorns all whip wielders into the same style. Some people don't want a whip sneak attack and don't want to do trick shots -- they just want to be able to disarm really well, or even use the whip as an actual weapon. A lot of people don't realize that in 3.5, a whip is a one-handed melee weapon, so you can power attack with it.

Welcome to the thread. It is an excellent book, and well worth the buy. I don't find the abilities provided to whip wielders at low levels to be unbalancing as you present them, considering the whip isn't exactly a munchkin's best friend to begin with. In fact, I'm sometimes suspicious that I'm the only one in my gaming group who knows it exists. I wasn't so much concerned with balance as I was with how it affected the existence of the Lasher. But then again, I've never really been that much of a Lasher fan anyway. Think I'll just pick up Weapon Master for Shirl, instead.

The change of the whip to be considered a melee weapon in 3.5 is not one I was aware of. I was confused about that when reading through your book. The ability to use Power Attack with a whip certainly affords it a greater advantage in Pledge of Tyranny, which uses vitality/wounds and armor DR. That's yet another 3.5 change I'll be happy to implement in my 3.215 rules!