Whip Questions

[Hypersmurf]

Re: custserv@wizards.com

Especially since he said "No" to #1.

!?

Does Wizards' budget not actually extend to rulebooks for its CS department?

-Hyp.

 

[reapersaurus]

wow.
I was not aware they had such shoddy rules support for 3E.
Seriously, I thought that they at least TRIED to get well-known rules questions correct, if they have a rep bother to answer them.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Re: wait wait wait

But he works for the source!

Ever called AOL customer service?

 

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

Actually I think the WoTC cust serv agent was correct.

The whip is clearly in theory a melee weapon. It is in your hand and you are whipping it about to do damage. I'm not shooting some kind of projectile at someone. Yet, it was classified as a ranged projectile weapon. Why?

The range on the whip makes it reach 5' further than any other melee weapon. (pikes and lances aside) 'If' such a weapon could threaten 15' and gets AoO in all those squares you have a weapon far superior to most other melee weapons.

Yes I know you're saying it only does 1d2 and is subdual. Yet with enough enhancements either on the weapon or on the whip user that 1d2 turns into a whole lot more. Or just use the whip dagger which is 1d6 crit x3 and deals real damage.

So I guess I'm suggesting the reason it was classified as a ranged projectile was to keep it balance wise in alignment with the other melee weapons. In my campaign I treat it as a melee weapon for the feats that can be used with it, yet I do not allow AoO for all the squares it threatens in 15'. (the only feature it shares with a ranged proj weap) Lasher PrC gives the player the ability to do AoO within 5' using the whip which I feel is sufficient.

In a nutshell, classifying the whip as a ranged projectile to solve the balance issues was sloppy by the game designers. Poor solution to the problem that could have been summed up by just stating no AoO with the weapon in the squares it threatens.

 

[Pax]

wow.
I was not aware they had such shoddy rules support for 3E.
Seriously, I thought that they at least TRIED to get well-known rules questions correct, if they have a rep bother to answer them.

Heck, they could pay me minimum wage, with comp copies of all rulebooks, and I'd put in 30 or 40 hours a week answering questions.

And at least I'd make damned sure I knew the rules well enough to answer reliably. And I'd never just say "yes, yes, no, no, no, yes" or the like. CITE the darned rules.

As for a budget for the rulebooks ... what's the budget needed FOR? Obviously if they're answering email they have text-capable computers. Just use the SRD for god's sake; not like that'd cost WOTC anything at ALL.

*sigh*

 

[Pax]

Actually I think the WoTC cust serv agent was correct.

The whip is clearly in theory a melee weapon. It is in your hand and you are whipping it about to do damage. I'm not shooting some kind of projectile at someone. Yet, it was classified as a ranged projectile weapon. Why?

You have, obviously, never used a whip to try and strike a target.

You don't HIT targets with the whip. You "throw" the tip of the whip at the target.

Ergo, it's a ranged attack. IMO it should be a ranged TOUCH attack even, but that's a different issue.

The range on the whip makes it reach 5' further than any other melee weapon. (pikes and lances aside) 'If' such a weapon could threaten 15' and gets AoO in all those squares you have a weapon far superior to most other melee weapons.

Which is another good reason the Whip is not a melee weapon.

Yes I know you're saying it only does 1d2 and is subdual. Yet with enough enhancements either on the weapon or on the whip user that 1d2 turns into a whole lot more. Or just use the whip dagger which is 1d6 crit x3 and deals real damage.

And in which case (the whip dagger) you're even MORE "throwing the tip" at the target ... just because the thrown part of the whip is -tethered- to you makes no difference.

If you tie a string to your arrows, so that you can yank the arrow back to you after each attack, does that make the bow-and-arrow a melee weapon?

So I guess I'm suggesting the reason it was classified as a ranged projectile was to keep it balance wise in alignment with the other melee weapons. In my campaign I treat it as a melee weapon for the feats that can be used with it, yet I do not allow AoO for all the squares it threatens in 15'. (the only feature it shares with a ranged proj weap) Lasher PrC gives the player the ability to do AoO within 5' using the whip which I feel is sufficient.

So, you apply Strength modifiers to the whip to-hit and damage, instead of dexterity? If so, I'd happily bet you $20 USD (and, I'm neither wealthy nor inclined to gamble) that you've never made serious attempts to hit any targets with a whip before. Not that that's a horrible lack, MOST people probably haven't ...

... but a whip is nothing even REMOTELY like any -- in fact ALL -- melee weapons.

In a nutshell, classifying the whip as a ranged projectile to solve the balance issues was sloppy by the game designers. Poor solution to the problem that could have been summed up by just stating no AoO with the weapon in the squares it threatens.

No, it reflects that one of the game designers had a clue, and had possibly actually *used* a whip sometime in the past.

Go get one. Heck, use an old electrical cord as a stand-in. Flick the end of it at targets, don't just flail about. See how much more like throwing a tethered dart or stone the process is.

I guarantee, if you do, and are honest about trying to "flick" rather than flail in a big arcing circle, you will change your mind as to wetehr or not classifying the whip as a ranged weapon was "sloppy", or otherwise inappropriate.

 

[Crothian]

Also, there is not one shread of evidence in any book that the whip acts like ranged weapons for some things, and melee weapons for others. If the whip functioned like that in any way, there would be a statement in the rules books about it. It's pretty black and white. Whip = ranged weapon, point blank sot is for ranged weapons; there fore whip and point blank shot can be used together.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It is a ranged weapon. All the way. You can't put your STR into the strike, you get AoO, you can't make AoO, so it would be total BS to deny the benefits of the ranged weapon to the whip, as you give it all the penalties.

 

[Li Shenron]

I have read of several people in this board having asked official advice/ruling on the Whip; IIRC, some time ago there was a sage response (or someone else's) about applying melee weapons feats on the Whip, such as 2WF, and it was a negative response.

Now android asks about applying ranged weapons feats on the Whip, such as Rapid Shot, and he gets a negative response.

I wonder if the customer service actually takes a look at PHB before answering, or just ask a passer-by "hey, is the whip a melee weapon?", "of course, you keep it in your hands!" answers the passer-by. Then comes the official answer

In the SRD, the Whip is still a RANGED weapon, period, and in the description it specifically say it is treated as PROJECTILE, with some special rule about range (no range increments, just max range 15ft). Therefore, everything available for ranged weapons is also for the Whip, while feats for melee weapons only are not available.
Furthermore, in few occasions you may notice that is it not considered THROWN: you don't get Str bonus to damage (you get a penalty however, and I think there are "mighty" whips on some splatbooks) and Far Shot increases the range by 50% only.

Ergo, it's a ranged attack. IMO it should be a ranged TOUCH attack even, but that's a different issue.

A good consideration, although I kindly disagree. Not very far from truth in fact: since you can't damage targets with at least +1 armor (or +3 natural armor), you don't take into account someone's armor, although it's a bit of a joke
Effectively, you're probably having a hard time hurting an armored NPC with a whip, and it sound quite realistic.

 

[android]

I tend to agree with majority of the people who have responded.

I have also emailed The Sage with the same questions I sent to custserv. He has yet to respond. I've never emailed him before so I'm not sure if he normally has this high of a response time or if he's just ignoring me.

Either way, I've pointed out the discussion to my current DM and we will decide on how we will play it.

Crothian - Nice icon. I graduated from OSU in March '02.