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Whirlwind and Cleave?
- Thread starter shawjames
- Start date
Malificent
First Post
Of course, to be able to whirlwind and great cleave you have to have:
Dodge, Mobility, Expertise & Spring Attack
Power Attack, Cleave
Int of 13+, Dex of 13+, Str 13+
So that's 8 feats, 3 stats of 13 above and you can't be wearing medium or heavy armor. I can live with a fighter getting to deal that kind of damage out in what is a very unlikely situation for the cost of buying all those feats and having enough high stats.
I consider the WWA/Great Cleave combo to be a feature of the Fighter class. All other classes get 7 feats in their careers, it takes 8 feats to pull this off. A human barbarian, paladin or ranger can do it, but the character will be 18th(!) level before it is possible and they can't take any other feats than the prerequisites.
A fighter can achieve this combination at 8th level if he doesn't take Weapon Focus, Specialization or any other generally useful feats. More typically it is 12th or 14th level.
And he still has to put a 13 in Intelligence, and not wear heavy armor.
These "blind kobold" mental games are fun and all, but I've never seen it happen in an actual game and have never heard tell of it happening in an actual game on these or any other boards. They are such unusual circumstances that a DM probably couldn't set it up by accident -- and they are such odd circumstances that few DMs would set it up on purpose.
I'm talking here about evil monsters having scads of allies to kill in order to get extra attacks on the enemy round after round. That is where it "seems" abusive. In normal circumstances a fighter with these feats will get a few extra attacks every now and then (enough to make it worthwhile) but not in every encounter. Don't forget that even with Great Cleave you only get one extra attack per opponent dropped so it isn't like you can get 30 free attacks when facing 4 opponents -- you will get exactly 3 in the entire encounter. Improved Two Weapon Fighting will probably add up to more free attacks over your career than adding Great Cleave to your WWA.
Oh yeah, you did realize that you still get your offhand attacks when you Whirlwind Attack. Didn't you?
A fighter can achieve this combination at 8th level if he doesn't take Weapon Focus, Specialization or any other generally useful feats. More typically it is 12th or 14th level.
And he still has to put a 13 in Intelligence, and not wear heavy armor.
These "blind kobold" mental games are fun and all, but I've never seen it happen in an actual game and have never heard tell of it happening in an actual game on these or any other boards. They are such unusual circumstances that a DM probably couldn't set it up by accident -- and they are such odd circumstances that few DMs would set it up on purpose.
I'm talking here about evil monsters having scads of allies to kill in order to get extra attacks on the enemy round after round. That is where it "seems" abusive. In normal circumstances a fighter with these feats will get a few extra attacks every now and then (enough to make it worthwhile) but not in every encounter. Don't forget that even with Great Cleave you only get one extra attack per opponent dropped so it isn't like you can get 30 free attacks when facing 4 opponents -- you will get exactly 3 in the entire encounter. Improved Two Weapon Fighting will probably add up to more free attacks over your career than adding Great Cleave to your WWA.
Oh yeah, you did realize that you still get your offhand attacks when you Whirlwind Attack. Didn't you?
IceBear
Explorer
I just enforce, more strictly, the "immediate vicinity" clause of the cleave so that a fighter can't turn a high level monster's minions against him in a fight.
Yeah, it's all well and good that the fighter had to spend 8 feats to get this ability, but just because a vampire shows up with a pack of rats doesn't mean that the fighter should be able to defeat him faster than if he didn't bring the rats. If the way I would do it, the fighter would kill all the rats in one round and get an extra attack against the vampire - that's enough of a benefit from his feats in my opinion.
IceBear
Yeah, it's all well and good that the fighter had to spend 8 feats to get this ability, but just because a vampire shows up with a pack of rats doesn't mean that the fighter should be able to defeat him faster than if he didn't bring the rats. If the way I would do it, the fighter would kill all the rats in one round and get an extra attack against the vampire - that's enough of a benefit from his feats in my opinion.
IceBear
JacktheRabbit
Explorer
There is an easy solution. Sure a fighter with cleave might get a free attack while whirlwinding from dropping a foe. Unfortunately taking that attack with disrupt the flow of the whirlwind attack so the cleave has to be taken at the end of the attack.
Also I would consider the Whirlwind attack to be one single attack action in effect. So at best you can get one free whack from dropping someone during whirlwind.
Also I would consider the Whirlwind attack to be one single attack action in effect. So at best you can get one free whack from dropping someone during whirlwind.
"If the way I would do it, the fighter would kill all the rats in one round and get an extra attack against the vampire - that's enough of a benefit from his feats in my opinion. "
So the Vampire sends the rats against the fighter rather than the wizard (dumb move) and the fighter only gets one attack? Why bother taking Great Cleave. In your system, under what circumstances would you get the extra attacks from Great Cleave during a Whirlwind Attack? Sounds like a rip-off to me. Definitely a house rule, in any case.
Doc Moriarty
"There is an easy solution."
Ummmn, to a problem that hasn't been demonstrated to exist, actually. Try playing by the core rules for a while and see if any problems arise. I'm pretty sure that at most, this combination will a dramatic result maybe once every few campaigns.
"Unfortunately taking that attack with disrupt the flow of the whirlwind attack so the cleave has to be taken at the end of the attack."
What about Great Cleave? Does he get multiple attacks at the end of the WWA if he drops multiple foes? Do these extra attacks come before or after his off-hand attacks?
I mean really, with plain old regular Cleave a 10th level fighter gets at most one extra attack per round under very strict circumstances and it needs to be fixed. A 10th level wizard can haste himself and cast two 10d6 fireballs per round and take out about 6 times (!) as many kobolds.
Mass destruction was the sole purview of the mage in 1e and 2e. In 3e the Fighter can (occassionally) pull his weight against the hordes. I am really uncomfortable taking this away from the Fighter (and it is only the fighter you are taking it away from).
So the Vampire sends the rats against the fighter rather than the wizard (dumb move) and the fighter only gets one attack? Why bother taking Great Cleave. In your system, under what circumstances would you get the extra attacks from Great Cleave during a Whirlwind Attack? Sounds like a rip-off to me. Definitely a house rule, in any case.
Doc Moriarty
"There is an easy solution."
Ummmn, to a problem that hasn't been demonstrated to exist, actually. Try playing by the core rules for a while and see if any problems arise. I'm pretty sure that at most, this combination will a dramatic result maybe once every few campaigns.
"Unfortunately taking that attack with disrupt the flow of the whirlwind attack so the cleave has to be taken at the end of the attack."
What about Great Cleave? Does he get multiple attacks at the end of the WWA if he drops multiple foes? Do these extra attacks come before or after his off-hand attacks?
I mean really, with plain old regular Cleave a 10th level fighter gets at most one extra attack per round under very strict circumstances and it needs to be fixed. A 10th level wizard can haste himself and cast two 10d6 fireballs per round and take out about 6 times (!) as many kobolds.
Mass destruction was the sole purview of the mage in 1e and 2e. In 3e the Fighter can (occassionally) pull his weight against the hordes. I am really uncomfortable taking this away from the Fighter (and it is only the fighter you are taking it away from).
Ywain said:
Nobody has suggested taking away anything substantial from the fighter. Great Cleave is still useful. Whirlwind Attack is still useful. It's Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack in combination that has potential for cheese.
As a sidenote, it's not the combo as such that's cheesy, it's the use of GC on a single target multiple times. The "bag o' snails" tactic works just as well if you only have GC as if you have WWA/GC. Limiting cleave attempts to one per target per round is a fair way to prevent cheesiness, while still retaining GC's usefulness against hordes of mooks.
IceBear
Explorer
Exactly.
As to why the vampire sent the rats against the fighter? Well, in the scenario I was imagining, there is only the fighter vs the vampire. It doesn't make sense that the fighter would have a harder time against the same vampire if if DIDN'T summon rats to help kill him. Yeah, the fighter is trained for dealing with hordes of monsters and fighting in crowds. Well, he just killed all the rats in one swing and hit the vampire twice (as opposed to 7+ times) which is more than the fighter who doesn't have those feats could have done.
I'm not making cleave or great cleave usless. The fighter attacked rat #1 with the WWA. It drops, he cleaves into #2. It drops, he cleaves into #4, etc all the way around until he gets to the vampire. He cleaves into it. It doesn't drop. He gets to WWA it now. See? I still allow cleaving, I'm just not allowing more than one cleave per oppoent to prevent the cheesiness of -
you WWA rat #1, it drops, you cleave into the vampire, you WWA rat #2, you cleave into the vampire, etc.
As I said before, why should that vampire be SO much easier to defeat than the same one that didn't summon rats?
IceBear
As to why the vampire sent the rats against the fighter? Well, in the scenario I was imagining, there is only the fighter vs the vampire. It doesn't make sense that the fighter would have a harder time against the same vampire if if DIDN'T summon rats to help kill him. Yeah, the fighter is trained for dealing with hordes of monsters and fighting in crowds. Well, he just killed all the rats in one swing and hit the vampire twice (as opposed to 7+ times) which is more than the fighter who doesn't have those feats could have done.
I'm not making cleave or great cleave usless. The fighter attacked rat #1 with the WWA. It drops, he cleaves into #2. It drops, he cleaves into #4, etc all the way around until he gets to the vampire. He cleaves into it. It doesn't drop. He gets to WWA it now. See? I still allow cleaving, I'm just not allowing more than one cleave per oppoent to prevent the cheesiness of -
you WWA rat #1, it drops, you cleave into the vampire, you WWA rat #2, you cleave into the vampire, etc.
As I said before, why should that vampire be SO much easier to defeat than the same one that didn't summon rats?
IceBear
Last edited:
Useless? Not strictly. Worthwhile, hardly.
As to your concerns about the vampire. The reason why it is easier to defeat when it is using rats (Rats against a 12th level fighter?) as mooks, is that the Fighter has spent eight feats to learn how to deal with this situation. If you think of the synergy between WWA/Great Cleave as a virtual feat, one is hard pressed to think of another feat that has 8 feat and 3 ability score prerequisites. One extra attack is sort of like leaving a penny tip.
"Limiting cleave attempts to one per target per round is a fair way to prevent cheesiness, while still retaining GC's usefulness against hordes of mooks."
Actually it makes the combination weaker, if only because the use of Great Cleave at high levels (10th and above) will function better for the Fighter (and equally well for the Barbarian, Ranger, etc.)
Compare:
Icebear's system (one cleave per opponent): Great Cleave only: Attack first mook, drop it. Cleave all the way around the circle and finish with the Leader. Leader has been attacked once at the highest Attack Bonus. Finish off iterative attacks against the leader.
Total 3 attacks on the leader, one on everyone else. 11 Attacks.
Result: 8 Attacks at the highest Attack bonus, 2 iterative attacks.
With WWA/Great Cleave: WWA First Mook, drop him, continute WWA attack until finished. Get Cleave on Leader.
Total 2 Attacks on the leader, one on everyone else.
Result: 9 Attacks at highest BAB. A net loss of one attack by using WWA in combination with Great Cleave
A fighter can acquire WWA at level 6 at the earliest, and by Level 11 Great Cleave has roughly equalled it in power. By level 16 WWA will be completely useless in these situations because Great Cleave on its own will give you two more attacks. The feat with the fewer prerequisites has more long-term benefit.
Core Rules System: Great Cleave only: same as above.
Total: 3 attacks on the leader, one on everyone else. 10 attacks.
Result: 8 Attacks at the highest Attack bonus, 2 iterative attacks.
WWA/Great Cleave:
Total: 7 Attacks on the leader, one on everyone else. 14 attacks.
Result: 14 attacks at the highest attack bonus. An increase of 4 attacks over Great Cleave only at level 11, or 3 attacks at level 16.
Hardly an exponential increase in attacks at the levels where the combination is possible, but significant enough to justify the additional 5 feats rather than just taking Great Cleave.
As to your concerns about the vampire. The reason why it is easier to defeat when it is using rats (Rats against a 12th level fighter?) as mooks, is that the Fighter has spent eight feats to learn how to deal with this situation. If you think of the synergy between WWA/Great Cleave as a virtual feat, one is hard pressed to think of another feat that has 8 feat and 3 ability score prerequisites. One extra attack is sort of like leaving a penny tip.
"Limiting cleave attempts to one per target per round is a fair way to prevent cheesiness, while still retaining GC's usefulness against hordes of mooks."
Actually it makes the combination weaker, if only because the use of Great Cleave at high levels (10th and above) will function better for the Fighter (and equally well for the Barbarian, Ranger, etc.)
Compare:
Icebear's system (one cleave per opponent): Great Cleave only: Attack first mook, drop it. Cleave all the way around the circle and finish with the Leader. Leader has been attacked once at the highest Attack Bonus. Finish off iterative attacks against the leader.
Total 3 attacks on the leader, one on everyone else. 11 Attacks.
Result: 8 Attacks at the highest Attack bonus, 2 iterative attacks.
With WWA/Great Cleave: WWA First Mook, drop him, continute WWA attack until finished. Get Cleave on Leader.
Total 2 Attacks on the leader, one on everyone else.
Result: 9 Attacks at highest BAB. A net loss of one attack by using WWA in combination with Great Cleave
A fighter can acquire WWA at level 6 at the earliest, and by Level 11 Great Cleave has roughly equalled it in power. By level 16 WWA will be completely useless in these situations because Great Cleave on its own will give you two more attacks. The feat with the fewer prerequisites has more long-term benefit.
Core Rules System: Great Cleave only: same as above.
Total: 3 attacks on the leader, one on everyone else. 10 attacks.
Result: 8 Attacks at the highest Attack bonus, 2 iterative attacks.
WWA/Great Cleave:
Total: 7 Attacks on the leader, one on everyone else. 14 attacks.
Result: 14 attacks at the highest attack bonus. An increase of 4 attacks over Great Cleave only at level 11, or 3 attacks at level 16.
Hardly an exponential increase in attacks at the levels where the combination is possible, but significant enough to justify the additional 5 feats rather than just taking Great Cleave.
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