Whirlwind attack -- Quick Question

[Caliban]

But surely Caliban there is some break even point (lots of variables in this equation) where the use of WWA is more useful against multiple opponents that take several attacks to kill?

Given that each attack of WWA is at the highest BAB, then you are more likely to hit with multiple attacks against multiple opponents than your normal iterative attacks against a single opponent. That is, at least you are more likely to damage the other opponents along the way where they are hard to hit with iterative attacks.

Can someone do the maths like was done with Power Attack? Or ar there too many variables?

Generally it's suboptimal in that situation. There are specific situations where it may be preferable, such as with the Whirlwind+Trip combo mentioned above. It depends on what your goal is.

 

[AGGEMAM]

And btw, remember that only give up all your 'regular attacks' which means you still have your off-hand attack(s).

 

[Killer Shrike]

But surely Caliban there is some break even point (lots of variables in this equation) where the use of WWA is more useful against multiple opponents that take several attacks to kill?

Given that each attack of WWA is at the highest BAB, then you are more likely to hit with multiple attacks against multiple opponents than your normal iterative attacks against a single opponent. That is, at least you are more likely to damage the other opponents along the way where they are hard to hit with iterative attacks.

Can someone do the maths like was done with Power Attack? Or ar there too many variables?

Yes, you reach the break even point in several cases:

When facing multiple opponents that take 1.5-2 normal hits to drop but are easy to hit IF you are also using Power Attack

When facing multiple opponents that take multiple hits AND you cant hit with your second attack at least 75% of the time.

When facing multiple opponents that take multiple hits AND working in conjunction with a Wiz/Sor using fireball or some other AoE spell. (WWA'er acts as bait, draws badies out into a nice congested grouping, softens them up with a single WWA, then beats feet while the Wizzo lets loose).

When using the WWA+ImpTrip or ImpDisarm or Knockdown combo.


However, as Caliban rightly points out, WWA is a suboptimal option under most circumstances. As Ive pointed out before, the usefulness of WWA scales directly with the risk for using it. In other words, to get the most optimal effect from it you have to engage 8 opponents who you can only hit around 75% of the time with your top attack bonus. Being surrounded by such foes is not a good recipe for healthy and comfortable living in the Martha Stuart way. Also, thanks to the feat chain to get it, the WWA'er is more likely to be a dextrous fighter with lighter armor than a heavily armored tank. In short, a riskier proposition than the Power Attacking - Great Cleaving tank fighter.

Except in special circumstances, it is always better to drop 1 opponent that to wound 8 when fighting in melee. Characters and Monsters are basically just vehicles for damage infliction in melee. Since there are no injury penalties in D&D, an opponent fights as well with 1 hp as they do with 250. Also, since a 20 always hits even outmatched opponents will still hit 5% of the time. Multiple opponents are 100% combat effective as long as they have a positive hp balance. Therfore it is better to reduce thier actual numbers than to reduce thier hp. Further, weight of numbers plays a big role in combat resolution; the longer you allow opponents to outnumber you, the more damage they can inflict on you for longer.

 

[Macbrea]

I don't know about you guys but the maximum number of people the character with whirlwind attack. Ever faced was 3 or 4. And in that case the power attack and cleave chain would have been far better. Most of the time Fighters end up slicing their way into the middle of combat the hard way. This normally, leaves alot of dead bodies behind them. The only class i know that is crazy enough to roll into the center of a group of people is a rogue. And that is because flanking just isn't as big a problem to them.

 

[Henrix]

Whirlwind attack can be quite good if you have an AC high enough that the opponents have a really hard time hitting you, or if their attacks don't deal that much damage.
Whirlwind attack and Expertise is actually a good combination.

 

[Darklone]

Agreed

Our lvl9 fighter with longsword and shield (traditionalist!) often uses whirlwind against two or three enemies. He's got several attacks, sure, but he does not hit that well with the second ones since he loves to use Power Attack +5 and Expertise +5... He still hits rather good with his highest BAB though. So he stands there, parries everything with his expertise and inflicts comfortable damage.

 

[alaric]

And btw, remember that only give up all your 'regular attacks' which means you still have your off-hand attack(s).

I'm not sure why off-hand attacks wouldn't be "regular" attacks, i know of no usage of the term regular as a game term. I read that as you lose all your regular/normal/standard/other attacks.

 

[Caliban]

I'm not sure why off-hand attacks wouldn't be "regular" attacks, i know of no usage of the term regular as a game term. I read that as you lose all your regular/normal/standard/other attacks.

It's in the FAQ.

Basically, your off-hand attacks are "extra" attacks, just like cleave attacks are "extra". Whirlwind only uses up all your normal iterative attacks, not any extra attacks you get from other sources.

 

[dr_nukem]

And btw, remember that only give up all your 'regular attacks' which means you still have your off-hand attack(s).

I disagree with that. Whirlwind is a Full Attack Action. I think that 'regular attacks' in this case applies to all of your attacks for the round, rather than 'regular' = On-hand attacks.

That is my interpretation.

 

[Ywain]

Well, you are of course free to house-rule it away. But the Sage/FAQ are very clear on the issue of extra attacks and WWA.

That being said, I am curious about the math involved in the combination of WWA and Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Being able to attack one opponent with three attacks (two at the highest BAB -2, and one at -5 from that number) and all other (even one other) at the Highest BAB -2.

Another thing that I am curious about is switching off between WWA (no TWF) and iterative attacks/Great Cleave. Focus on one opponent to soften him up then switch to WWA/GC to finish him off and begin softening the others. You would really have to pay attention and do your best to "count cards" but against typical opponents you would have a reasonable ballpark of your opponents HP.

Anyhoo. It is a dramatic feat, but just like any other core feat it isn't a must have.