Who Makes WotC's Adventures?

There are now three large hardcover adventures for D&D 5th Edition. There's the two-part Tyranny of Dragons campaign produced by Kobold Press; there's Princes of the Apocalypse, from Sasquatch Game Studios; and there's the imminent Out of the Abyss, from Green Ronin publishing. All of these are official, hardcover adventures produced for WotC by third party companies. But how does that actually work? What is the relationship between the company producing the products and the company publishing them? WotC's Jeremy Crawford told me yesterday that the term "outsourcing" is innacurate when it comes to describing this arrangement.

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If we go back a bit to when I asked Kobold Press' Wolfgang Baur about the process, he told me that "the 5E adventures are produced as a combination of studio work and WotC oversight." He went on to describe it in a little more detail, highlighting a to-and-fro between the companies -- "we'd do some portion of the work, then we would get feedback from WotC on Realmslore, or story beats, or mechanics. Then we did more of the design, and got feedback from swarms of playtesters. Then we turned over another version for feedback on the art and layout. And so forth. It was iterative..." So collaboration clearly takes place all the way through the process.

He describes Kobold Press role as "the heavy lifting in design, development, and editing" with WotC having "crucial input and set the direction for what they wanted".

Moving ahead to now, WotC Jeremy Crawford observes that "It's bizarre to see a few posters on ENWorld mistake our [D&D 5E] collaborations as outsourcing. Each book has been a team effort." The input from WotC isn't just greenlighting the book at various stages; as Jeremy tells us "Our reviews are deep. We create the story & the concept art. We write portions of the books. We design mechanics. Etc.!" As he also points out, the credits page of each book tells us who contributed to each.

So there we have it. These books aren't outsourced to third parties in any traditional sense of that word; the books are written as a collaborative effort with writing and more done by both companies.

 

[Morrus]

Good thing I'm not trying to convince anyone. But if my message isn't clear let me say it like this. There's no point in conversing about anything if the thought police are going to accuse you of attacking people and hurting their feelings for expressing an opposing view.

Agreed. So stop accusing everyone of being "thought police" every time they disagree with you. If you can't handle disagreement without ranting about free speech and accusing people of nefarious things like "thought police"-ship, then don't post. Your opinion is no more valid than anybody else's and is subject to civil criticism just like everyone else's is; you can dish it, clearly; you have to be able to take it, too. Stop being a jerk, please. It *is* possible to politely express disagreement.

If you disagree with another poster, politely explain why. If you accuse anyone else of thought policing or anything similar, you'll be asked to leave the thread. I hope that's clear.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Ok fine. I'm wrong for feeling that what they are doing IS outsourcing and expressing that. I never attacked him or used the word liar. Clearly things are much too sensative around here for people to have a thing called freedom of speech, to express their views. I'll just stop posting ANYTHING negative and conform to the hive mind.

Here's the point though Justin... why do you care?

What's your point? Why is it important to let everyone know you think Crawford is outsourcing even though he says he isn't? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you arguing the point for a reason, and if so, what is that reason?

You say WotC should put on their big-boy pants if they can't take negative feedback... but the problem is... you actually aren't giving them feedback (if we want to suggest feedback actually has some use). You are essentially telling Jeremy "I do not think that words means what you think it means."

Well, good. You're correcting his vocabulary. But to what end? Why should he care? Why should any of us care that you are correcting his vocabulary? And that's why people are discussing this with you-- because nobody seems to understand your point (if in fact you do have one.)

So what exactly is your point?

 

[justinj3x3]

Agreed. So stop accusing everyone of being "thought police" every time they disagree with you. If you can't handle disagreement without ranting about free speech and accusing people of nefarious things like "thought police"-ship, then don't post. Your opinion is no more valid than anybody else's and is subject to civil criticism just like everyone else's is; you can dish it, clearly; you have to be able to take it, too. Stop being a jerk, please. It *is* possible to politely express disagreement.

If you disagree with another poster, politely explain why. If you accuse anyone else of thought policing or anything similar, you'll be asked to leave the thread. I hope that's clear.

I'm not ranting about anything Morrus. I'm responding to people and saying what I have to say. The only person here getting hot under the collar is you.

If you accuse anyone else of thought policing or anything similar, you'll be asked to leave the thread. I hope that's clear. <-------BTW THATS thought policing. Guess I'm done in this thread!

 

[Morrus]

I'm not ranting about anything Morrus. I'm responding to people and saying what I have to say. The only person here getting hot under the collar is you.

If you accuse anyone else of thought policing or anything similar, you'll be asked to leave the thread. I hope that's clear. <-------BTW THATS thought policing. Guess I'm done in this thread!

Do not argue with mod posts in-thread. Not that that matters, because with that post you just outstayed your welcome here. Please do not post again in this thread.

Folks, Justin will not be posting again on this thread, so please do not respond to his posts on this topic. Thanks!

 

[Umbran]

Good thing I'm not trying to convince anyone.

Yes, well, that brings up the (entirely rhetorical) question of what you were trying to do.

There's no point in conversing about anything if the thought police are going to accuse you of attacking people and hurting their feelings for expressing an opposing view.

You realize that cuts both ways, right? Disagreeing with *you* brought accusations of being thought police! How is that not itself being thought police?

The Golden Rule applies. Give feedback in the form you'd actually like to receive it. You shall reap as you sow.

If you have an issue with how WotC communicates with you, how do you figure insulting them (with the "big boy pants" comment) was going to serve your stated preference? If you didn't like how Morrus communicated with you, how do you figure the "thought police" comment was going to make the situation better? Do *you* react well and conform when insulted or faced with someone aggressive? Probably not. So, you shouldn't expect others (corporate or otherwise) to react well either.

Now, to be entirely clear - there are no thought police. Notice how neither Morrus or I had used "mod voice" at this point? Nobody is trying to silence you. Some people are merely suggesting that your thoughts on the situation may be a bit short of the mark. But then, things got a bit aggressive, and deteriorated.

 

[Zaukrie]

I have no issue with them collaborating, outsourcing, partnering, as long as they provide good products. It is definitely not true that everyone that talks about this is negative about it. 100 percent not true.

 

[Jester David]

So how much do they have to do for you to consider them at least partially praiseworthy? Sounds like they had a pretty hefty hand in creating the books.

They had a hand in reviewing the book. That's not writing. That's not creating. It's hugely important but it never gets credit. If it were people could rattle off the winners of the Best Editing Oscars like they could Best Picture or Best Director.
The difference between a good book and a great book is the editing. Many good creatives's products dropped in quality when they became too "big" and stopped being edited. Like Rowlings or Spielberg. But a great editor it just helps the writer be better. They're the coach. But coaches don't actually play the game.

 

[Jester David]

Just wanted to point this out:
View attachment 69437
So, who "made" the books. I guess I'd have to say them.

Expanding on that, the words of Wolfgang Baur, Steve Winter, and Alexander Winter were edited & developed by Kobold Press staff. Sometimes heavily, as Rise of Tiamat doesn't include a writing credit from Wolfgang Baur, as he edited out all his contributions to the book. The art was ordered by Kobold Press. The maps were ordered by Kobold Press. The playtesting feedback was handled by Kobold Press. They even formatted the book. (The difference in paper quality is might even be because of their involvement and the cost of glossy.)

I've made the analogy of movies before. WotC is the main studio. There are the studio heads in charge of the film. They plan the movie and then hire a screenwriter to write that movie. Then they hire a director to film that movie. Then they hire an editor to order the scenes and pick shots. They're involved in every step of the process, and sometimes even need to approve changes and rewrites.
Studio interference is often held up as a purely negative thing. And it can be bad when silly studio execs (or producers) place curious demands on a film. But a lot of films have succeeded because of a steady studio hand. You can attribute the overall success of the Marvel Cinematic Universe to the studio.
But the individual films are still the creation of their individual directors, and their success or failure lies with them. No one every really goes to a movie because it's from the same studio as another hit.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Lastly, I'm not sure where the idea comes in that Organized Play is somehow vastly different from regular home games -- after all, some of the greatest adventures in D&D history started as RPGA offerings, often as tournament adventures. I don't see 'designed for Organized Play' being a detriment to using that same material in a home game; in a sense, a campaign is a campaign.

"Designed for Organized Play" wouldn't be a big detriment, in a home campaign, you have a lot of freedom to adapt the material however you want. But organized play can be very different. Encounters, for instance, is short sessions of open-entry, public, casual play, and that requires a fairly clear, even linear sort of adventure that works well with the ruleset in use.

Making the first part of every new AP a bit railroady, and specifically designed for the AL ruleset, might start to rub people actually buying the books the wrong way, even though it wouldn't really be a great impediment to them - not as tough as it would be on AL organizers/DMs/players to adapt a more 'interesting' scenario to the limitations of Encounters.

Plus, AL in general and Encounters in particular, is the closest thing we have to new-player outreach, so it needs to show the game in its best light...

 

[Mistwell]

April:

Excuse me? Heaven forbid I express my opinion. That makes me not deserving of being spoken to? Last I checked we all have opinions and a right to express them. SHAME ON YOU for attacking me for expressing my opinion.


"To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker." Frederick Douglass

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell

Seriously shame on you. Have more respect for opinions that differ from yours. Even if you disagree.

May:

I know disagreeing with WOTC is frowned upon...

July:

Ok fine. I'm wrong for feeling that what they are doing IS outsourcing and expressing that. I never attacked him or used the word liar. Clearly things are much too sensative around here for people to have a thing called freedom of speech, to express their views. I'll just stop posting ANYTHING negative and conform to the hive mind.

Huh.

[Edit to add this: . Because apparently it was unclear I was gently poking fun]