Who was right

[billd91]

I'd also point out that unless the opponent has a really cool 'extra sundering' attack, sundering a shield is a pretty limited/daft thing for NPCs to do, which further bolsters me 'DM is being a weasel' comment.

I mean, PCs rarely sunder shields. First of all, it's HARD. Second of all, you've blown a decent attack to make it SOMEWHAT easier to... hit the person. Most PCs I know of would rather simply attack the target; melee folks may simply use less power attack or keep the opponent occupied so the casters can do stuff that armor doesn't help (ranged touch, saves, etc). Third, of course, is the 'don't break stuff you want to sell.'

And, heck, all three are compelling reasons for NPCs not to break PCs' stuff; presumably if they defeat the PCs they want loot to improve THEIR equipment.

Meh. I hate NPCs that don't behave reasonably.

I disagree, with some provisions. If the character is known to be good at blocking with a shield (particularly to the point where it's 9 points of his AC and the level they're at ... he should have a rep for it), then smashing the shield becomes a valid tactic. I would do that with giants, for example. If they have trouble penetrating defenses, they'll start smacking through shields as best they can.
If they PC isn't known to be good with a shield, then the opponent needs to learn that for himself and chances are he won't live that long, hence the "provisions".

Enemies the PCs face aren't necessarily stupid. They'll notice things, they'll hear things, and if they're smart enough, they'll adjust their tactics. Even if it costs the PCs money.

 

[Oryan77]

If I was in the group and a PC pulled that on my character, he'd either be dead the next morning, asked to leave the adventuring party, or beaten to a pulp & looted of all items; depending on my PCs alignment.

If I go adventuring with the assumption that I'll be gaining a fair share of treasure, I would never expect to be responsible for someone's equipment. If so, then I'd demand that everyone carry crappy gear that they wouldn't mind losing. Cause I sure wouldn't lose out on treasure cause some guy spent all his wealth on 1 luxury item and lost it. His choices shouldn't affect my earnings.

If the group is ok with it, then that's good. But if they say "no", there's not really much you can do about it but whine & be a nuisance. There's really nothing you could do about it because they don't have to allow that guy to adventure with them. My PC would probably tell the Paladin, "Tough...deal with it or get lost".

It's an interesting line of thought you had though and I don't blame you for proposing it...it's worth a shot.

 

[Korgoth]

I also notice that almost every post against me is based is saying that the party doesn’t owe me anything or that I shouldn’t take from party gold. None of these arguments are valid. I never said the party owed me gold. I am not saying that the party should give me 25,000 gold of their treasure. I am saying that the 25,000 gold is mine and not theirs.

Talk about begging the question! The very point at issue is to whom the gold belongs.

I will say one thing in your favor: if your character was created with this shield (which I am guessing, since you said the party started at lvl 12) then the DM made a terrible mistake by allowing it in the first place if he has a problem with you having a high AC. I don't agree with the DM's apparent approach here. Nevertheless, the loot from the encounter should be divided evenly and you should buy a new shield out of your share of the loot; it is reasonable to request that the other members give you some charity but it should not be required of them.

 

[DMReckless]

Using your own logic, none of you were right.

By their actions, the villians in question owed all of the money to the town. Every last copper should have been used to ressurect every person in town killed by the villains. If any money was left over, you and the Monk should have been taken care of next. Then whatever was left over should have been split by the party.

The villains "sundered" the lives and property of the villagers, and thus, the money the villains had MUST belong to the villagers first.

I'd really like to see you respond here, because I don't think you can make a case against your own logic. Not without being all those things you say you're not.

 

[Henry]

Moff Tarkin, all I can say is this:

If your DM ever tries to talk your group into going up against a group of Slave Lords in an Aerie by the sea, DON'T DO IT. You will NOT be a happy man afterwards.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Shields are for sissies.

That said, it's a magic item. YOUR magic item. What happens to it as a result of damage, dragon breath, or disjunction simply does not matter. It's a tool of your trade, and it got broken during regular use. Too bad, so sad. Enchant a new one, or use something else.

By contrast, if you sunder an opponent's shield and, by chance, you take him alive, do you recoup HIM the losses HE took as a result of YOUR actions?

Party pools are just that - money and gear EVERYONE shares in. If your gear gets destroyed, a good party might offer to use the Pool to enchant a new shield. You're simply trying to use alignment as leverage to get what you want. If I were in your party, I might give you some extra of my share to help recoup your loss, but I'd never do it if demanded because "I'm Lawful".

That's pretty much my thoughts on the matter (apart from shields being for sissies! ).

Yeah it sucks to lose a magical item like that but the rest of the party is not obligated to give you 25k to compensate you for your loss. If they are nice people they might chip in to get you a new shield but I don't think that they are obligated to do so. You could ask them to do something like that but I wouldn't demand it. I think you have a false sense of entitlement.

If I were you I would stop using real world logic to try and justify and compare something that happened in a fantasy world where people throw magic around and giant dragons fly and breathe fire. The two places are totally separate from each other. Trying to compare the two just weakens your argument in my opinion.

Olaf the Stout

Edit: And after reading this thread I can see where Blackguards come from!

 

[FalcWP]

Edit: And after reading this thread I can see where Blackguards come from!

Pre-law dropouts?

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Pre-law dropouts?

I think that would be giving too much credit.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Kyrail]

Why would someone come in... ask peoples advice, listen to their opinions, then tell them they're opinions are invalid and wrong... and keep asking for advice. Someone who doesn't want anything but validation. Sheesh. You are not acting for a discussion you want people to agree with you or be silent.

Your Paladin is a jerk, I would tell him to go find a new party with behavior like that.

I would of helped pay off the 7k (it seemed everyone came out 18k ahead?) he was short to buy a new shield assuming I liked him, since that is in fact a small drop in the bucket when split amongst all the party members, but not if he was acting like he entitled to it just because he failed to stop his shield from being sundered.

It's an apposed attack roll, in all rules sense you screwed it up.

On another note I'd like to point out that I think there was some kind of rules screw up if he got a +5 shield sundered.

Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.

A +5 towershield has hardness of 10 and 70hp, and would require a +5 weapon to damage... that really happened in one attack?

 

[Maggan]

OK, I’ll try to post my final say on the word. I can guarantee that I won’t respond to further arguments but I will try to make this my closing statement.

Good luck! That's one of the most difficult things to do in the whole wide world.

That shield was a major, in fact the biggest, part of my character. The loss of it crippled me, the party tank. That’s why it should have been replaced by the party.

Exactly. Not because the bad guy owed you money that was rightfully the villagers' money. But because replacing the shield was a good thing for the group.

People keep making the stupid argument of whether I should pay for the wizards spell component or the archers arrows. Ok buddy, I’ll pay for your 2 silver piece arrow and you can chip in on my 25,000 gold piece shield. Sounds good to me. I would come out ahead.

1. It's not stupid. You tried to appeal to "logic". Logic dictates that you follow the same procedure for everyone. So if you wanted "logic" to be the deciding factor, then your fellow PCs should be paid. And not all arrows cost 2 gp, which you are surely aware of.

2. When you say "I would come out ahead" we get to the gist of it. You want to come out ahead, which is not really something people equate with a Paladin. If you had stated that as you reason for going for the money shot, people would be debating the alignment of your character, and not the "logic" behind your claims.

Can I ask what you geniuses do with your shields?

I couldn't really tell you, but I haven't had any +5 shield sundered yet, so I must be doing something right.

/M