D&D General Why a PETITION: Stop Hasbro's hurtful content is a Bad Idea

[Justice and Rule]

It doesn't ignore it at all as he acknowledged at the end of his post that it was an echo chamber. I agree with him that it is a mild one, though. If you want to post in that thread you MUST agree that something else needs to be done beyond WotC's warning. You can't disagree, which makes it an echo chamber. As for @The Sigil's post over there that was linked here in the OP, I thought it was very well written and agreed with almost all of it.

Is it an echo chamber if you agree to certain things or conditions for discussion? Like, if I say I want to find a rules system but don't want GURPS or Savage Worlds, is that an echo chamber? I feel like we are using words a bit too lightly here.

 

[HectorsNemesis]

There is a fan made 5E version of Mystara

 

[Maxperson]

Is it an echo chamber if you agree to certain things or conditions for discussion? Like, if I say I want to find a rules system but don't want GURPS or Savage Worlds, is that an echo chamber? I feel like we are using words a bit too lightly here.

Asking for help finding something is not the same as "You must agree with a premise or you can't post." What is happening over there is different than you trying to find a type of rules system. I don't have to even like what you are trying to find in order to help you out. Over there I have to agree that change from what is already being done needs to happen. I don't agree with that. The warning alone is sufficient. Could it be made better by an announcement that proceeds from that product are going to charity? Yes. That doesn't need to happen, though.

 

[Alzrius]

I want to emphasize that this is not to say that anyone in this discussion is the same as those calling for the ban on D&D in the 1980s.

You don't need to come from the same place to reach the same destination.

 

[Ashrym]

The content should be changed because it reinforces negative stereotypes, which is harmful. There's no benefit in keeping it, so keeping it because it's historically part of the game looks like an appeal to tradition.

Defending keeping that content is defending the reinforcement of those negative stereotypes for no good reason, which isn't a good look on anyone IMO. The content should be changed because it's harmful and there's no good reason to keep it.

To the person who mentioned the First Amendment.... WTF? Do you think the American Constitution applies to every country in the world? The First Amendment is protection from government in regards to freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and right to petition. Protection from government isn't the same thing as freedom from consequence, protection from criticism over content, or relevant outside of the US (that's some heavy projection). The suggestion of a right to petition for a redress of grievances to the government does seem like it might be applicable to the conversation (in spirit), however, if people are petitioning for a change to content.

2 cents. I'm dropping the government stuff if I continue in this conversation. It just seemed silly when I saw it.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Asking for help finding something is not the same as "You must agree with a premise or you can't post."

I mean, it literally is. If I say I don't want GURPS or Savage Worlds as an answer, that is functionally exactly the same.

What is happening over there is different than you trying to find a type of rules system. I don't have to even like what you are trying to find in order to help you out.

I mean, unless you want to say that I should play GURPS or Savage Worlds. Those people are obviously restricted, right?

Over there I have to agree that change from what is already being done needs to happen. I don't agree with that. The warning alone is sufficient. Could it be made better by an announcement that proceeds from that product are going to charity? Yes. That doesn't need to happen, though.

They're asking you to engage with the thread rather than rehashing old arguments. Given that the last thread was... 120 pages long? I think that's pretty reasonable to ask that we move past that and discuss it in a different light.

To the person who mentioned the First Amendment.... WTF? Do you think the American Constitution applies to every country in the world? The First Amendment is protection from government in regards to freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and right to petition. Protection from government isn't the same thing as freedom from consequence, protection from criticism over content, or relevant outside of the US (that's some heavy projection). The suggestion of a right to petition for a redress of grievances to the government does seem like it might be applicable to the conversation (in spirit), however, if people are petitioning for a change to content.

2 cents. I'm dropping the government stuff if I continue in this conversation. It just seemed silly when I saw it.

I mean, the 1st Amendment has no place in this anyways because I'm fairly sure Biden Administration is not getting involved, in the same way that the Heckler's Veto doesn't really apply because the Biden Administration isn't stopping the sale of thing thing due to threats of violence or unrest.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, it literally is. If I say I don't want GURPS or Savage Worlds as an answer, that is functionally exactly the same.

I mean, unless you want to say that I should play GURPS or Savage Worlds. Those people are obviously restricted, right?

No, because nobody should be telling you what you should be playing in any thread. We don't get to tell you what to do. It's also not the same because there are lots of ways for me to participate in that thread, where there are none in the thread about the Orcs of Thar. I can say no I won't sign, but I can't discuss anything because I don't agree with the petition or what it's asking. I'm effectively banned from that thread, where I would not be from the one you are putting forward as a hypothetical.

 

[Maxperson]

Doing so wouldn’t be a logical business decision - all pain, negative gain.

That only brings pain as well from people who don't want to see the past hidden.

Much more business reasonable to simply stop selling it.

The best business decision would be to just announce that any proceeds will be donated to an anti-racism charity.

 

[Justice and Rule]

No, because nobody should be telling you what you should be playing in any thread. We don't get to tell you what to do. It's also not the same because there are lots of ways for me to participate in that thread, where there are none in the thread about the Orcs of Thar. I can say no I won't sign, but I can't discuss anything because I don't agree with the petition or what it's asking. I'm effectively banned from that thread, where I would not be from the one you are putting forward as a hypothetical.

But it's exactly the same, just in one instance your acceding to the desires of the thread-maker and in the other you aren't. But either way there are ground rules for what is to be discussed and what is off-limits, meant to focus discussion how the OP intends it to. We do this all the times in different threads, I don't see why this is really any different.

 

[SteveC]

I mean, the 1st Amendment has no place in this anyways because I'm fairly sure Biden Administration is not getting involved, in the same way that the Heckler's Veto doesn't really apply because the Biden Administration isn't stopping the sale of thing thing due to threats of violence or unrest.

As the guy who brought up the First Amendment, I'll just say that I realize that this isn't an issue of government censorship. I used that as an example because I am a near absolutist in terms of free speech, but I realize that it does have limits. There are well described limits on free speech there, and I support them. That's the standard I believe in.

WotC has an absolute right to do whatever they want with their content, but that doesn't mean I support it, even if I don't like it. There are more than a few products they're produced over the years that I don't like, but I also don't expect them to care one bit about that opinion. And I'm not interested in getting anyone else riled up about it either.