Why are healing surges limited?

[Asmor]

I have to say, it is somewhat amusing to see those (in the general sense) that derided the methods for dealing with the "15 minute adventuring day" now touting those same methods as integral to the game.

That's it in a nutshell, for me.

So far, I've only run 3 encounters in KotS. We haven't actually gotten into the eponymous keep, where they'll be more hard-pressed to take an extended rest; however, the first few encounters are totally devoid of any context to make an extended rest undesirable. Further, the encounters have been level appropriate, but have really taxed the players' resources. Heck, at the end of the second encounter of 4 PCs the fighter was the only one left standing. One of the PCs was dropped 3 times in that single encounter. Maybe that's where my problem's coming from.

After thinking about it some more and hearing some of the arguments posted, I'm going to give the RAW another chance. I'm still not completely convinced that limited healing surges are such a great idea, but I also didn't tone down the encounters to account for the fact that there were 4 PCs instead of 5, and we're also not in the area where the meat of the adventure takes place.

how cold and calculated or wussy are your players characters? Is there not a single bold corageous impatient one among them? who can rile the party into going forwards or even go it alone?

That's using roleplaying to balance mechanics, which I think is a very poor idea.

You can only take 1 extended rest in a 24 hour period.

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, not that it makes much of a difference.

 

[Blackeagle]

So far, I've only run 3 encounters in KotS. We haven't actually gotten into the eponymous keep, where they'll be more hard-pressed to take an extended rest; however, the first few encounters are totally devoid of any context to make an extended rest undesirable. Further, the encounters have been level appropriate, but have really taxed the players' resources. Heck, at the end of the second encounter of 4 PCs the fighter was the only one left standing. One of the PCs was dropped 3 times in that single encounter. Maybe that's where my problem's coming from.

If you're running KotS, as written, with 4 PCs, then you're not really running level appropriate encounters. A level appropriate encounter for a level 1 party is 100 XP per character. With four PCs, the first few encounters work out to:

[sblock]
Kobold Brigands: 118.75 XP/char, slightly below a level 2 encounter
Kobold Ambush: 156.25 XP/char, slightly above a level 3 encounter
Kobold Lair, Outside: 143.75 XP/char, slightly below a level 3 encounter
Kobold Lair, Inside: 312.5 XP/char, slightly above a level 7 encounter (and people wonder why this one's a killer)
Burial Site: 149.75 XP/char, almost exactly a level 3 encounter[/sblock]

I don't know which three you ran, but the first five encounters are all well above a level appropriate encounter for four 1st level PCs. They're certainly doable (well, maybe one of them isn't), but it's not surprising that encounters above the party's level causes them to burn through their daily healing pretty quick.

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, not that it makes much of a difference.

Page 12 of the KotS Adventure Book, under Rest and Recovery, "Once per day, the PCs can take an extended rest."

 

[ArchAnjel]

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, not that it makes much of a difference.

Page 6 of the quick-start rules and again on page 12 of Keep on the Shadowfell, "Once per day, you can take an extended rest. It must last at least 6 hours to gain the benefits. You have to rest or sleep during this period."

 

[Ginnel]

That's it in a nutshell, for me.
That's using roleplaying to balance mechanics, which I think is a very poor idea.

In a role playing gaming? perish the thought. I can't think of a single group I've played with in any game which would advocate the rest after a fight method why should that change just because we put a "4th edition" on the cover of the rulebook we're using?

 

[FadedC]

In a role playing gaming? perish the thought. I can't think of a single group I've played with in any game which would advocate the rest after a fight method why should that change just because we put a "4th edition" on the cover of the rulebook we're using?

Well I agree with Asmor on this one. People should roleplay, but because everyone roleplays differently it shouldn't be used as a balancing factor for game mechanics. Not that I think there are anything wrong with the mechanics in the first place.

 

[Spatula]

If you mean the method of using story and time pressure to discourage the 15 minute workday there's a big difference between 3e and 4e.

In 3e a party can have a tough fight, use up all their resources and simply not have a hope of surviving a second fight that day. They have no healing left, no spells left and are low on hit points. No amount of plot can prevent this. This happens especially frequently at low level.

In 4e this is just not possible. At worst your whole party is doiwn some healing surges and all their dailies and is quite capable of handling more fights. The DM is free to use plot reasons to prevent a rest without causing a TPK.

It's not possible to run out of healing surges?

 

[Treacherous_B]

In a role playing gaming? perish the thought. I can't think of a single group I've played with in any game which would advocate the rest after a fight method why should that change just because we put a "4th edition" on the cover of the rulebook we're using?

I also have Asmor's back on this one - while roleplaying is (IMHO) the more-important factor of a game (vs. mechanics), using roleplaying to cover up holes/unbalances in the mechanics seems...sub-optimal.

Also I feel it's necessary to point out that just because the idea of resting after an extremely taxing fight is unfathomable to your play group, that doesn't make it a bad idea. If I'm heading towards a keep full of kobolds, for example, and the first/second group of kobolds I encounter on the way requires the majority of my healing surges and my daily power(s), you better believe I'll be resting to prepare for the presumably-larger fight.

 

[Mouseferatu]

It's not possible to run out of healing surges?

It's possible--I've done it--but it's not common.

 

[Sphyre]

One of the early criticisms of 4e when people made knee-jerk "Omg they changed one thing and now that throws the whole system out of whack, don't mind me that I'm assuming that they haven't counter balanced it with something else," rants was that "A 4e party is invulnerable! They can heal to full without a healer after battle? They can use their spells at will and per encounter over and over again. What's to stop the 4e party from trouncing every encounter and never stopping?"

Well there are a few things that require an extended rest. For one, daily abilities. But if you can get by on just encounter abilities for a while, are you really ever going to stop? Not really. But when your healing surges are limited, it really shows how far you can go.

Fighting takes endurance. What stat is endurance tied to? Constitution. What stat gives you more healing surges? Constitution. Really makes sense to IMHO.

Even if in practice healing surges are more than you'd really want to use in a day (I don't know if KotS should be a good measure of this as it's the first and only adventure we've seen thusfar, and I haven't played it yet.) it's a built in set number, so theoretically one can't go on fighting forever without an extended rest.

 

[see]

Hilarious. So the difference between 3e's "fifteen-minute adventuring day" and 4e's is whether you unwisely blew all your healing surges instead of whether you unwisely blew all your significant spells.