Why are skill challenges "broken"?

[Stormtalon]

You're not increasing the DCs, though. The table value +5 is the normal DC for skill checks. Heck, look up "skill check DC" in the DMG index.

My point is it's a +5 increase over the base values in the table and not needed when accounting for the inherent difficulty created by the challenge format. With all the discussions about how broken the system is, to me it seems that the simplest "fix" for the problem is to read the +5 DC footnote as applying only to one-off skill checks for the off-the-cuff "I wanna do this!" actions by PCs.

Then, by enforcing an initiative order and everyone acting in their turns you can get better dramatic tension and avoid the need for everyone to Aid the one person who's best suited for that particular challenge. There're better chances for success, better opportunities for everyone to contribute to the success of the party and fewer headaches for the DM -- it's a net benefit for everyone.

 

[StormCrow42]

A note, there are new errata posted on the WOTC website here. The DMG errata includes a massive revamp of the DCs for the skill challenge system.

 

[jelmore]

A note, there are new errata posted on the WOTC website here. The DMG errata includes a massive revamp of the DCs for the skill challenge system.

Yes, and the errata officially removes the notorious footnote from page 42; in other words, you don't add +5 to the DC for skill checks any more.

 

[Mistwell]

The errata now seems to say for Skill Challenges you no longer roll initiative unless the situation is combat oriented. Not everyone has to participate, and if they do participate and use an appropriate secondary skill it's no longer defaulted to a hard difficulty level for that secondary skill.

DCs are now a heck of a lot easier to hit, with first through third level getting DCs 10 easier than they were before (so easy is 5 instead of 15, moderate is 10 instead of 20, and hard is hard is 15 instead of 25). The rest of the table is also easier, sometimes as much as 13 easier than it was before.

In addition, it now requires 3 failures to fail a skill challenge, regardless of complexity of the challenge.

 

[Spatula]

My point is it's a +5 increase over the base values in the table and not needed when accounting for the inherent difficulty created by the challenge format.

Sure, and that's a fine modification to make (although it doesn't address the underlying probability issues with the "more complex" challenges).

Will have to look at the new errata on skill challenges. I would really love a working system for participatory skill encounters.

 

[Spatula]

Something has been bugging me for some time now.

What is it about the concept of skill challenges that apparently makes it so viable in 4e, but not in 3e?

Nothing, the basic idea is pretty much independant of any particular skill system as long as you can define success or failure for character tasks. I think there's even a proto-version in the 3e UA.

 

[BASHMAN]

Summary of the “Fixed” Skill Challenges

1. Reduce the DCs down by 10-5.
2. Participation in a skill challenge is ALWAYS optional for the player.
3. Do not roll initiative UNLESS it is a combat-related challenge.
4. The number of failures is ALWAYS 3, regardless of complexity.
5. Aid Other can should be limited to 1-2 times.
6. Secondary Skills are NOT forced to be Hard difficulty (moderate is fine).

Now all I have to do is get the DM to read the errata and use it. Our game came to a screetching halt on 2 occassions because of those [insert expletive here] things, either because we failed the challenge and had no adventure hook, or the players got pissed and threatened to quit the campaign because the DM dared to give another skill challenge after we all stated we hated them and that we never wanted the DM to run one again. Some players DID quit the campaign over it-- so now our party has no cleric.

 

[Runestar]

Hooray for finally being able to voluntarily exclude yourself from skill challenges if you feel yourself to be more of a hindrance.

 

[silentounce]

Well, at least the errata shows that challenges were broken for those in this thread that said that WotC never said they were. If they weren't broken they wouldn't have needed such a large errata on them.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Well, skill challenges went from frustratingly hard to pathetically easy even with hard DCs (the new ones). Heh, WOTC just can't seem to win.